Betty Saville is in David Johnson's book - Around Crystal Palace and Penge. He uses the same words.
Of course; that is where the image and caption is taken from...
I will ask him where he got the image from.
I know the Plas-y-green image he used came from Bromley, but I don't know where the Betty one came from. It's not important, though, because the source won't tell us anything else about the buildings that we don't already know.
Most of the other images I've compiled in this topic simply have captioned "cottage at Penge", which is rather frustrating. These buildings are in desperate need of identification. It's difficult to find pictures of any timber-framed buildings in historical Lewisham, let alone Sydenham, but I've already spotted (2) guaranteed Medieval/Tudor buildings at Penge through the images compiled in this topic. Perhaps an expert on architecture could verify more. This is extremely significant for the history of Penge. And I'm very surprised and frustrated that I'm the only person to have made this observation/connection. The Crystal Palace should have stayed in Hyde Park! Part 3 of this topic will deal with demolition dates.
I found out that Betty Saville had a caravan on the common, in what is now the Thicket Road area. She was eventually granted land in Kent House Road where her caravan was sunk into the ground, taking a permanent position, and even extended with wood!
I have recently moved into one of the Alexandra Cottages and am very interested in their history. The estate was built between 1866 and 1868 on the site of Porcupine Meadow, apparently owned by the Duke of Westminster and sold to the Metropolitan Association for Improving the Dwellings of the Industrious Classes at a knock-down price. I am intrigued to know more about Porcupine Meadow and the reason for its unusual name. I have been reading the postings and understand that a building called The Porcupine stood nearby, but I can't quite follow where this was - am I right in thinking that it is thought to have stood by a toll gate in Hardings Lane? If anyone knows more about this, or what it was, or indeed where the toll gate in Hardins Lane was, I'd be very inteersted to know more.
The Porcupine field and Pub were about were the Lennard road frontage of the Alex rec is now.
The Hardings lane toll gate was on or about the site of that row of 3 1950s houses built where a bomb fell.
The stick of bombs that left this gap also hit Parish lane Edward road,where the garages are,Thesiger road and a couple other streets.
you can tell by the 50s infill
The road governed by the toll gate I believe went straight on via Alexanda road and to Sydenham road,
Princes road runs along the boundary of a field line shown on one of Falkors maps here, so the placing of the toll gate is more or less obvious if you look at all the maps.
There was another gate in Newlands park at various times aka times Penge Lane
The bit of Parish lane from Hardings lane to Lennard road did not exist at that time, logic would surmise that it was built to compensate for the closure of the crossing at Penge East.
What Falkor does not seemed have cottoned onto in his otherwise excellent research is that Penge Lane has changed name and position at least three times
Originally it seems to have run Crooked Billet>Parish Lane
that was then renamed Old Penge Lane and Penge Lane ran from High Street over the railway at P. East station up to Sydenham, which is now Newlands Park.
Possibly even the Croyden road may have been named on some maps as Penge lane.
Old Penge Lane is now Penge lane again
Its all on the maps.
I think that the old Penge cottages Falkor is so keen to track down where on the Newlands Park stretch. Its the only place they fit to my way of thinking.
I knew Alexanda estate when the houses there could be bought for 4 grand a shot,bit different now?
I bet the Queen Alex is still a thugs haven?
During the 1960s the side street lights were turned off at midnight, they were those quaint little butterfly ones with the bits of mirror inside.
Houses on Parish Lane backing onto the railway went for £2,750/3k, mind you a lot of them had one outside water tap between two, and a loo at the end. And that was in the 1970s.
The Alex estate was ruined as soon as the yuppies moved in and "improved" every thing which included chopping down all the trees, every house on the estate had a lime tree at the gate, cut them down to build car parking.
Can you believe one resident used to run a minicab and coach service out of Edward road?
Princes road had two small shops at the junction of Hardings lane,and just about every street there had a corner shop of some kind, you can still pick them out.
Parish lane up to the mid 70s had a whole range of shops, a motorbike shop, a newsagent,a sweet shop, an estate agent, a kids clothes shop, a small grocer, a barber, a sign writer, a dry cleaner and a few others I forget.
All killed off by the supermarkets that all this lot here are clamouring to bring to Sydenham, so they can buy the identical item in a different wraping and call it choice, mad as bats
Many thanks indeed for that reply. This "yuppy" for one has already replanted a tree, so we're not all bad. It would still be interesting to find out more about exactly what the Porcupine was, and how long this quiet bit of Penge has been associated with that unusual name. If anyone finds anything more out, please let me know!
Hi ,
I'm new to the Forum but i came upon this site and am amazed at the info that's been posted here on the history of the area .For some years i've been researching parts of my family known to have lived in Sydenham and Penge Common circ 1790-1830 and wondered if anyone here on the forum might recollect coming across any of these surnames -Healey,Holland ,Sutton or Allen from any old maps or related to any land documents that might have survived . I know it's a long shot but 'm trying to track down their properties -i have references for Healey's in Sydenham and Holland ,Sutton & Allen on Penge Common .
As this was up to and around the time of the enclosures i especially wondered if any of the above surnames might be recorded on any maps/land records for Sydenham & Penge ?
I realise records from this era are hard to come by but if anyone can offer any help or advice i'd be very grateful.
Nando, a person called Healey was awarded land under the Lewisham Enclosure Act; three small plots at Bell Green and a larger plot in the area that was to become part of Wells Park. He might have been Joshua Healey (married to Isabella) who is described as a "gentleman" of Sydenham and died in 1815. His will is held in the National Archives, and should give more information.
Thankyou Steve , that info is very intersting as i wasn't aware of the Lewisham Enclosure detail - Joshua Healey is one of the ancestors & families i am researching . I've had the Will for some time which details him as a shareholder in the Croydon Canal Co with an exstensive Estate with properties in Tower Hill , Upper Russell St Bermondsey but unfortunately no real detail on the "Sydenham" property which he evidently owned in the area . However i have a newspaper notice (circ 1827)which makes a reference to a sale of part of his estate which might give a clue - i am not local to the area and do not know if this description would come under Sydenham , perhaps someone here might be able to recognise the locality ?
"A freehold Estate consisting of several dwelling houses & premises containing 5A 3R 25 P of land -situate opposite to Fort Place near the Turnpike , in the Deptford Lower Rd ".
Incidentally - the Isabella Healey you refer to was formally Barnfield -
if this name means anything to historians in the area i'd be very interested to hear from you .