Middle Class Pubs
Greg can i ask what you mean by you have a brave idea where I lived in Longton Avenue! you keep referring to Honor Oak as SE4 when in fact it is SE23. You, yourself are making sweeping generalisations regarding Brockley and Honor Oak being full of low income earners. I am not down on Sydenham but all you seem to do is moan about the lack of pubs and bars in Sydenham yet as with Pukka Bar there just wasn't the support for such a place, and a shame that was. Its unfortunate that many times we have had the pubs taken over only to close down again. example when Pukka Bar closed it was taken over by a really nice landlord who in turn decided to shut up shop on a saturday afternoon as he was fed up with all the violence that was happening in his pub, eg 2 gangs of youths trying to kill each other with machettes!
I'm sure with the East London Line coming in, you will see bars etc opening.
I'm sure with the East London Line coming in, you will see bars etc opening.
I have moved this part of a long Greyhound thread to Town Cafe because:
1) The subject had drifted away from the substantive issue
2) Its starting to get personal
The latter is IMHO unhelpful. People are accusing each other of saying things they didn't which invites unhelpful responses. For example there is only one reference to SE4 which refers to Brockley which is correct.
I'm also confused as to whether "middle class" is a badge of honour or a term of abuse. It is certainly dated.
Then the same could be said of Admin
1) The subject had drifted away from the substantive issue
2) Its starting to get personal
The latter is IMHO unhelpful. People are accusing each other of saying things they didn't which invites unhelpful responses. For example there is only one reference to SE4 which refers to Brockley which is correct.
I'm also confused as to whether "middle class" is a badge of honour or a term of abuse. It is certainly dated.
Then the same could be said of Admin
i think megan is right, if it is ever going to happen, it will happen when the east london line comes, and probably not before, unless something miraculous happens with the greyhound.
they could do worse than take a look at the east dulwich tavern, a pretty plain pub, yet with a decent atmosphere. you get a whole cross section in there, they have a decent selection of beer, and plenty of bar staff too.
considering the competition in east dulwich is pretty fierce, bar and pub wise, it is always busy. somewhere like that round here, would clean up.
they could do worse than take a look at the east dulwich tavern, a pretty plain pub, yet with a decent atmosphere. you get a whole cross section in there, they have a decent selection of beer, and plenty of bar staff too.
considering the competition in east dulwich is pretty fierce, bar and pub wise, it is always busy. somewhere like that round here, would clean up.
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stringfellow
- Posts: 38
- Joined: 8 Aug 2005 17:43
Middle class Pubs
I may be a bit late for this one but..I've recently moved to Sydenham from SE4.
I don't believe Brockley has anywhere nice to drink either, ok if you are at Crofton Park there are a couple of wine bars but if you are near actual Brockley station you really don't have much choice, the Barge might be fine if you are strapped for cash and the last time I went past the Maypole it was still boarded up.
Forest Hill benefitted from a lot of good press and recently I have noticed Sydenham getting some too, notably the Times property section (or was it the Independent? sorry I'm a middle class Kent boy) calling it a 'sexy suburb' and last weeks Homes & Property section with the Evening Standard.
From some of the comments I have read you would think you had the worst high street in the world but part of the reason we moved here (apart from it was cleaner, greener and a lot less meaner than Brockley) was that Sydenham actually has a proper high street with banks, supermarkets, chemists, independent DIY & bookshops, a decent dry cleaners, a gym, health food shop, cake shop, florists. Ok so in amongst all those gems you also have pound shops galore and a lot of takeaways but who doesn't occasionally want a pizza on a friday night? try getting fish & chips in East Dulwich for the same price (have you been to the Sea Cow?)
Sydenham probably has the highest amount of decent victorian property in Lewisham, next time you go down the high street look at the tops of the shops, (if you can avoid falling into the hole than seems to run the whole length of the street and smells of gas) some of the buildings are fantastic. It's got 3 (count them, 3!) train stations, the ELL extension in the (hopefully) not too distant future and a Sainsburys big enough to lose yourself in.
Sydenham might not have any gastro pubs or wine bars yet but they will come, Kirkdale is not that long a road and eventually someone is going to try their luck. Forest Hill has come a long way in the last few years, before 'Lattitude' (although I think that too has gone) there was not much on offer and now with the East Dulwich comedy club coming to the area and the 'Dartmouth Arms' etc. things have come on in leaps & bounds.
Whilst you await gentrification you always have the 'Golden Lion' which may not be trendy but is welcoming and has a beer garden.
I don't believe Brockley has anywhere nice to drink either, ok if you are at Crofton Park there are a couple of wine bars but if you are near actual Brockley station you really don't have much choice, the Barge might be fine if you are strapped for cash and the last time I went past the Maypole it was still boarded up.
Forest Hill benefitted from a lot of good press and recently I have noticed Sydenham getting some too, notably the Times property section (or was it the Independent? sorry I'm a middle class Kent boy) calling it a 'sexy suburb' and last weeks Homes & Property section with the Evening Standard.
From some of the comments I have read you would think you had the worst high street in the world but part of the reason we moved here (apart from it was cleaner, greener and a lot less meaner than Brockley) was that Sydenham actually has a proper high street with banks, supermarkets, chemists, independent DIY & bookshops, a decent dry cleaners, a gym, health food shop, cake shop, florists. Ok so in amongst all those gems you also have pound shops galore and a lot of takeaways but who doesn't occasionally want a pizza on a friday night? try getting fish & chips in East Dulwich for the same price (have you been to the Sea Cow?)
Sydenham probably has the highest amount of decent victorian property in Lewisham, next time you go down the high street look at the tops of the shops, (if you can avoid falling into the hole than seems to run the whole length of the street and smells of gas) some of the buildings are fantastic. It's got 3 (count them, 3!) train stations, the ELL extension in the (hopefully) not too distant future and a Sainsburys big enough to lose yourself in.
Sydenham might not have any gastro pubs or wine bars yet but they will come, Kirkdale is not that long a road and eventually someone is going to try their luck. Forest Hill has come a long way in the last few years, before 'Lattitude' (although I think that too has gone) there was not much on offer and now with the East Dulwich comedy club coming to the area and the 'Dartmouth Arms' etc. things have come on in leaps & bounds.
Whilst you await gentrification you always have the 'Golden Lion' which may not be trendy but is welcoming and has a beer garden.
still awaiting the arival of child, so couldnt get there myself, but would also be interested to hear of any upshot.
i did pop into the two halves though, the other afternoon, and saw, positively, that they have introduced a quite expansive west indian menu. i didnt get a chance to try it, as i couldnt hang around, but would be keen to hear if anyone has tried it.
i did pop into the two halves though, the other afternoon, and saw, positively, that they have introduced a quite expansive west indian menu. i didnt get a chance to try it, as i couldnt hang around, but would be keen to hear if anyone has tried it.
I went to the meet'n'greet last night. About 25 people. Due to Rooney et al exciting the regular customers it was difficult to follow all that was said. But this is what I remember:
* The horrid external colour is to be toned down with a terracotta replacing the ..errr.. turquoise?
* Undesireables have been banned. This has had a significant (negative) impact on takings
* The new security men were introduced. They sure scared me!
* A dress code will be introduced and under-21 will be subject to discretionary entrance.
* Sky TV to be taken out
* Events with professional singers and a chess championship were mentioned
Some local residents were very expansive on the noise pollution problem.
Personally I commend Cynthia for trying this outreach. Frankly she has a tough job to effect any improvement and make a profit. The Greyhound is my nearest pub but I have preferred the DWH. Nevertheless as Cynthia is trying I think she should be supported and I will try and use it from time to time. Sadly this will mean going without real beer but maybe in time we might create the demand to encourage her to try it out.
* The horrid external colour is to be toned down with a terracotta replacing the ..errr.. turquoise?
* Undesireables have been banned. This has had a significant (negative) impact on takings
* The new security men were introduced. They sure scared me!
* A dress code will be introduced and under-21 will be subject to discretionary entrance.
* Sky TV to be taken out
* Events with professional singers and a chess championship were mentioned
Some local residents were very expansive on the noise pollution problem.
Personally I commend Cynthia for trying this outreach. Frankly she has a tough job to effect any improvement and make a profit. The Greyhound is my nearest pub but I have preferred the DWH. Nevertheless as Cynthia is trying I think she should be supported and I will try and use it from time to time. Sadly this will mean going without real beer but maybe in time we might create the demand to encourage her to try it out.
i havent visited the greyhound for maybe a year even though im only in lyric mews- i will try and frequent it more .i think as the owners are trying to make an effort ..i was kind of hoping that the old camera shop on cobbs corner might be converted into a bar , but sadly its another estate agents oh well cest la vie
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stringfellow
- Posts: 38
- Joined: 8 Aug 2005 17:43
Don't worry biffa, it all starts with estate agents, the sooner they actually become interested in selling Sydenham rather than Forest Hill & Crystal Palace the sooner we'll get somewhere nice to drink!
I've not ventured into the Greyhound yet, R&B & baseball caps tend to put me on edge, but if they are genuinely looking to change it then I'll throw caution to the wind and pop in for a pint after work some night.
I've not ventured into the Greyhound yet, R&B & baseball caps tend to put me on edge, but if they are genuinely looking to change it then I'll throw caution to the wind and pop in for a pint after work some night.
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Muddy Waters
- Posts: 137
- Joined: 2 Oct 2004 17:05
I’ve recently moved from East Dulwich (ED) having grown up and spent most of my adult life in there to Sydenham. Be careful what you wish for. In the last 5 years life in ED went from having a vibrant community to being overrun by smug media types who only appear in the evenings and at weekends. Looking down their noses at anyone who doesn't meet their criteria of an ED resident. What started as a minor irritant has become oppressive, with old ED residents like myself feeling under siege. The reasons I liked ED in the first place, have steadily been eroded. Affordable property attracting unemployed actors and comedians. The area used to have a good mix of shops, these have all been replaced with gift shops like "Ed", and every pub is now gastro. Two new bars opened last month, with rumors of more to follow. The ethnic mix has all but disappeared, on my old street alone 4 families have left the area. Parking has gone from bad to horrendous with the massive influx of visitors, and the litter from all those restaurants. The Lordship lane used to be a lot like Sydenham High Street, dying when Sainsbury’s opened a store on Dog Kennel Hill. That changed largely due to Comedy at EDT (Formally Joe Brands local), people began to discover the virtues of living in an area with just enough to do, but still quiet enough to enjoy. Imagine coming home to see a queue stretching round the block as happened when Eddie Izzard appeared there. The downside of all these pubs and bars are a steady stream of police cars speeding up the Lordship lane from one trendy bar to the next, the thugs simply dress better to fit in, but they're still there. I can see the same thing happening here, as the owner of The Bishop has been advised that this would be a great area for his next pub. Luckily on this occasion I live far enough from high street for it not to directly affect me, so can smugly pop in and out, retreating to the relative quiet of my street. The signs are all there, I’m one of a number of ED residents moving into this area for better value property. It’s only a matter of time, the parallels are striking, and let’s just hope it’s managed better than it was in ED. My final word, lets not forget that 10 years ago, when I mentioned that I lived in East Dulwich, I received comments about living in the poor undesirable part of Dulwich, how times change!
thanks wrightie. i agree with everything you have said there. i've lived in sydenham for 20 years, and east dulwich has been a regular haunt of mine. a couple of nice pubs here and there, is one thing, but when a whole bunch of 'media types' as you say, move in, then the whole place heads south, in my opinion.
there is more to life than house prices.
there is more to life than house prices.
As a "smug media type" could I please ask that just a few more of my kind are allowed into the area. Not too many - I agree we don't want to see the area turn into East Dulwich. But as you can see from the contributions of the likes of Kenny Karzi (Town Hall - Greyhound) we've got a very long way to go before this happens. Even the Sydenham Tennis club quiz night on Wednesday was full of questions about Big Brother. Help me please, I'm stranded in an alien culture! Couldn't you please send me just a few more people who I can talk to about rugby union football and how to avoid Capital Gains Tax when selling a second home?
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GLOBAL THINKER
- Posts: 179
- Joined: 2 Nov 2004 13:20
- Location: SYDENHAM
But, Global Thinker, that's exactly what we are doing and I can't see any signs of "snipes or insults" in the last few postings. The debate is about whether you can have better/different pubs/shops without some degree of social change.
I stand full square behind the notion that we need a very large degree of social change ie lots more people living in the area with high disposable income to give a wider variety of shops/pubs than the ones we currently enjoy in Sydenham Road. There are those who are concerned that too many people such as this coming into the area may turn a diverse area into a replica of East Dulwich. Frankly, this area is so unlike East Dulwich that a few more wealthy people wouldn't be unwelcome. Also the higher percentage of social housing in Sydenham (as opposed to an area such as East Dulwich) will always act as a brake to complete change. Frankly, you aint ever to turn Sydenham into Richmond on Thames.
Over the last few weeks a number of us having been talking to a local businessman who runs exactly the type of pub many of us would like to see in Sydenham. His comments on parts of the area are quite frank and illuminating. ("parts of Bell Green and Lower Sydenham and areas close to Penge simply aren't going to attract the customers you need to run such an establishment"). These are not comments of social snobbery. They represent the views of any hard headed business person sizing up this area and wishing to run a pub or shops which doesn't cater merely for low spend customers.
Maybe this is a hard view to swallow but you aren't going to get major change in the high street without social change. If anyone has a solution which doesn't involve such change, I'd love to hear it.
I stand full square behind the notion that we need a very large degree of social change ie lots more people living in the area with high disposable income to give a wider variety of shops/pubs than the ones we currently enjoy in Sydenham Road. There are those who are concerned that too many people such as this coming into the area may turn a diverse area into a replica of East Dulwich. Frankly, this area is so unlike East Dulwich that a few more wealthy people wouldn't be unwelcome. Also the higher percentage of social housing in Sydenham (as opposed to an area such as East Dulwich) will always act as a brake to complete change. Frankly, you aint ever to turn Sydenham into Richmond on Thames.
Over the last few weeks a number of us having been talking to a local businessman who runs exactly the type of pub many of us would like to see in Sydenham. His comments on parts of the area are quite frank and illuminating. ("parts of Bell Green and Lower Sydenham and areas close to Penge simply aren't going to attract the customers you need to run such an establishment"). These are not comments of social snobbery. They represent the views of any hard headed business person sizing up this area and wishing to run a pub or shops which doesn't cater merely for low spend customers.
Maybe this is a hard view to swallow but you aren't going to get major change in the high street without social change. If anyone has a solution which doesn't involve such change, I'd love to hear it.