RebuildTheGreyhound - pub to be rebuilt by April 2015?

[leenewham]

As so many nay sayers say it's too small, here is a comparison of pubs:

The Greyhound: 3,396sqft
The Windmill (Kirkdale): 7624 Sq Ft
The Golden Lion in Penge: 4,373sqft.
The Old Red Lion, St John Street: 1829 Sq Ft
The Shaftsbury, South Harrow: 1,680 sq ft
The Wheatcheaf, Oxton: 901 sq ft
Le Chandelier (bar/restaurant in East Dulwich) 1769 Sq Ft (66 covers)

Here is the gubbins fro, Biscuitmans link:

A detached building arranged over two floors plus basement providing approx 3,396sqft of accommodation forming the front part of a new mixed use development. The new development including the subject property provides approx 10,419sqft of commercial accommodation and 40 flats. Sainsbury’s have secured the rear commercial unit in the development and will be opening soon. Formally The Greyhound Public House, the building has been completely refurbished and is ready for a tenant or purchaser to fit out to their exact requirement. The property has planning permission for a ground floor single storey glazed extension to the left as you face the property. Positioned in the centre of a new public square, the property benefits from A3 (restaurant) / A4 (drinking establishments) use and an external terrace area to the front and side. The property is prominently located on the Cobb’s corner roundabout adjacent to Sydenham Train Station. The prominent location and high footfall makes the property idea for an eating establishment / gastro pub. - See more at: http://www.acorncommercial.co.uk/proper ... L4bqo.dpuf

[monkeyarms]

Price doesn't seem to be too steep. Given that the Windmill is up for, what, £1.2 million was it?

The thing I don't quite understand about A3/A4 usage is this: can no part of the building be for residential use? If it were to be a pub, would that preclude the landlord or staff living on premises? I'm just wondering what the 1st floor area could realistically be used for?
If, on the other hand, I've completely misunderstood, and the upstairs area could be residential (i.e. turned into flats) then the price is a bit of a bargain.

[biscuitman1978]

Whilst the unit behind the Greyhound will be occupied by Sainsbury's, the unit to the right hand side is still available for rent.

Full details are available from Hindwoods and CDG Leisure.

The property is available at £71,250 (£25/sqft) per annum.

[FromCtoShiningC]

I'm slightly surprised to see the Greyhound not already sold within a 'deal' (it's been long enough known that it would be available), however, I suppose this is how things work these days - i.e. the formal processes of advertising and bidding via the web, and the new owner would - understandably - want a finished product.
It would seem a bargain (relatively speaking, given London prices) and so I hope we get an exciting new venture moving in soon.....

[broken_shaman]

The Greyhound

[Mayowthorpe]

I have nothing against Sainsbury's (I do most of my shopping there), but it would have been nice to see a Little Waitrose take the space that Sainsbury's has already secured.

Only because we already have a Tescos, Sainsburys and Coop nearby, and it would be nice to have a fourth choice for groceries.

Waitrose have still avoided a store with an "SE" postcode, even though Beckenham is just down the road.

[michael]

Waitrose have still avoided a store with an "SE" postcode

Greenwich Waitrose ruined this claim.

[leenewham]

Sainsbury's wouldn't bring me to the high street. It's a big zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

A Waitrose might have enticed me, or an Aldi or a Planet Organic certainly would have, or a good independent offering something different rather than more of the same in a space that is inviting (certainly not Lidl, we already have one and they have an issue with ethics).

Hopefully something enticing and exciting will appear in the unit next door and the pub of course.

[Ghlpc]

For the other empty unit, at 70k per annum, I can only really see a chain being able to afford it.

I wouldn't be surprised, or too disappointed to be perfectly honest, to see something like a Nero, Costa, etc.

Is it too small for a pizza express or cafe rouge? I know these places have criteria to meet when seeking new units.

I always thought the top of the high street would be a great little spot for some concentrated nightlife, as I think at the moment, it's obvious that is what it is lacking. We have some nice little places (the Italian, bistro dolphin) but all seem a bit isolated.

If the orb is something decent too, then we may be in for an exciting 2016 .....

[parker]

Well Costa have opened two outlets in Catford so anything is possible. As much as I wouldn't particularly bother using a coffee place like Costa, Nero etc it would help make the place 'look the part' which at the moment can't be said for much of the rest of the high street. Ideally I think it would be nice for the pub to become a pub again, get a Starbucks or Nero in the Orb unit and maybe a decent chain restaurant in the opposite Greyhound 70k per annum unit. I know a lot of people don't like chains but they make an area 'look the part' which is exactly what the area has needed for decades. Independents don't always know what they're doing and their shops can often look crap making the area to look unviable to prospective tenants. I'm sure Nero and Pizza Express have thought exactly that. Places like Wylarbo Chomp just don't cut it these days and the Cobbs Corner developments deserve better. I mean come on Blue Mountain, give your awning a wash once in a while will you...!

[coll]

I like the idea of a costa or pizza express in theory but would probably never chose Pizza Express over Tratt Raff!

[Pally]

I don't think the High Street is perfect, I think its got good and not so good bits. I do think it could be even better and it seems a shame that it hasn't got the growing coordinated feeling one sees/ gets in Forest Hill. From previous threads I get a sense this might be partly to do with a strong traders association working with the FH Society, but I may be wrong.

I find it interesting/strange/surprising that what appear to be pretty good spaces around the Greyhound are not being snapped up and wonder why...cost? Location? Surrounding high street? Other things?

[parker]

I think we can get carried away with the notion of change. As we stand, on the 9th February 2016, I already think the High Street is pretty much perfect.

I couldn't possibly agree because if that were true the house prices would be more in line with the rest of the capital and the high street wouldn't (as Eagle once put it) have a 'third world' look to it. I couldn't agree with him more. As I've said before, I think it is completely blinkered to think there is nothing wrong with Sydenham. Even Penge, a generally less desirable area than Sydenham, attracts more businesses. Something is wrong.

[mosy]

As there are no "To let" boards outside the vacant outlets, I assume something is holding up the letting of them. I have a vague recollection that there were some council provisions whereby the Greyhound had to be finished first but now it is, so must be something else...

I think chains would make that part of the high street "look the part" for a motorway service centre ensemble, given it's a TFL through route. Hardly something to be aspired to IMO.for a traditional high street look. It would be depressing to think that only chains could afford those outlets and I wonder sometimes how other shops survive but they seem to since few if any others are empty so perhaps take heart?

[leenewham]

I did a survey a while ago and overwhelmingly Sydenham Road was perceived to be 'shabby'. I think it's far from perfect. It has some good places on it, but I'm surprised anyone would think it's perfect. I don't think any high street is perfect, they are just different, with different levels of love and success.

We have LOADS of high street chains in Sydenham, from Superdrug, banks, Post Office, Lidl, betting shops, charity shops, Subway, Tesco, various estate agents, pawn shops, funeral directors, chemists etc. All pretty mundane, if useful.

We don't have much in the way of aspirational chains. I'm no fan of Costa etc, but I'd welcome anything ethical that we don't already have, even if it's a chain. I'd quite like a large Emmaus store (I'm a fan of charity shops) or Oxfam.

Infact, much of what I want I can't get locally and rarely venture to Sydenham. Lots of people I know think the same way. The place I go to the most is probably Brown & Green in Mayow Park locally or other places for meetings away from the office.

A lot of small local shops in London aren't run by locals. They often live far away.

Overall I find the high street rather depressing, unfortunately. It looks and feels unloved, uncared for. Rubbish, dirty chewing gum covered, stained pavements, dirty or broken awnings, signs, windows, wires hanging down, satellite dishes, and bad maintenance, untidy 'make do' window displays and a general lack of much evidence of people wanting to win custom or compete.

It's a shame, because some places are trying and they are being let down by others.

[sydenhamboy]

What it needs is just a few 'quality' places all near each other - so you get 'an end' of the high street that suddenly has a 'feel' to it - as has seemed to have in Forest Hill. Not a stone's throw away from Sydders, sections of Forest Hill have created something resembling a 'vibe'. Somebody mentioned earlier in this thread that the 'nice' places are a bit isolated. And they were right. The Dolphin and Trattoria at one end. Blue Mountain at the other. On The Hoof and a couple of other decent places are struggling to 'join up' if that makes sense.

But, Sydenham is close to doing something. But it's been a slow process. If the excellent new Greyhound premises becomes a really nice pub/bar, and the Orb attracts a decent deli/coffee house/nice business then that links up with Blue Mountain café, On the Hoof and the nice ice-cream/sandwich place. And good old Kente is fine too. Then something great starts to happen.

What there isn't any doubt about is that really nice places do well in Sydenham. The housing stock and rising prices are demonstrative of a changing demographic that needs somewhere to go; to eat; to drink; to shop. Beer Rebellion is always packed on a Fri/Sat night - and Brown and Greens has been a phenomenal success in Mayow Park. The Dolphin remains popular. Some of the businesses down the Sydneham Road should be a-bloody-shamed of themselves. They look rubbish and no one goes there. The real problem is that some of the local traders seem convinced that it's still 1987 - and un-persuaded that they've got their audience all wrong. But they have these days. But it's up to the rest of the Sydnenham businesses to prove them wrong - and that, in turn, will attract the 'nicer' chains and the 'cooler' independents. But it might need to start with one end - and probably the one nearest to the overground.

[mosy]

Personally, I couldn't survive as a Stepford Wife. I like our high street. Don't forget it's a very long run of shops (given both sides) so there's enough room for a mixture. What's the point of having a hundred "posh shops" that you need a credit card to buy anything from but day-to-day needs have to be found elsewhere? That seems bonkers to me as a "vision".

[FromCtoShiningC]

I agree with many others here….

I think there are two types of shops (like music) – good and bad….

I don’t place a distinction between independents vs chain shops in that view. There are wonderful independents up and down the country which I would cherish having in SE26 (we used to have lovely independent antique shops in Kirkdale many moons ago).

Likewise with chain shops. It’s all about simply whether the offering and aesthetics are QUALITY or not. An independent or chain can suffer from poor quality as much as they can be a great place to shop or eat/drink etc….

The reason I tend not to spend too much time on the Sydenham High Street is there is little to do apart from transactional shopping.... In my view, a Town centre as large (and long) as ours should ideally be somewhere to wander/people watch/enjoy oneself, rather than simply functioning as somewhere to purchase things from shops. There are some great shops, but the experience is very transactional as a whole.

The people in SE26 CAN support a much broader set of activities on our High Street - I think businesses need to realise this and widen the net to who is catered for, as otherwise people will continue to drain away to other more (on paper anyway) salubrious areas for their shopping and nightlife.......

Another point - probably more important for me - is that ventures like the new Bob Wines (which I hope is coming soon to the Station Approach) is the type of aspirational venture that I think SE26 very much needs. I was in Crystal Palace recently, and the number of exciting new food and drink options was amazing. Why can this be the case in CP and not in Sydenham? We should encourage options for our high street that are not just about transactional shopping, but are about experiences for everyone.

That said, I'm very much a glass half full person, so here's to the future! – a future of varied options, and people pushing for quality in their customer service – be it a pound shop, or a delicatessen or bistro or anything else that is in business to serve the good people of SE26.

[parker]

Parker, Eagle has never been to the 'third world'; if he ever had he would realise how crass the comparison is. As I said, house prices should not always be used as a catch-all indicator of an area's attractiveness. Houses of over £600K generally attract a whole different type of citizen; the area will change just as much for the types of people who are priced out by this. Not everyone welcomes more buggies.

But I'm grown up enough to appreciate we all have different feelings on this, Parker. Mine happen to chime with Mosy;

If Eagle hasn't been to the third world then I would say in this context he was being very intuitive as I doubt he's far off the mark.

I must say, when the London Overground arrived I really thought it was going to be the turning point in how it possibly was for Forest Hill. Take a look at Northcote Road in Battersea/Clapham Junction, it's full up of all sorts of chain stores and restaurants, some upmarket as well those that are seen on most high streets yet it has a thriving Farmers market every weekend where friends get together and there's a real community feeling that are probably drawn by the the huge number of independents amongst the location. Why would putting chain stores or 'posh shops' in a similar fashion in Sydenham be so bad for what is otherwise a pretty grim zone 3 destination? Do we all like Morley's so much we couldn't possibly welcome a 'Chicken Shop' or 'Nando's'? ...Because not only would it attract money to the area but it would give people more of a reason to come/stay in Sydenham instead of shopping elsewhere. If by the switch of a button I could have the vibe and variety of a Saturday afternoon of Northcote Road in Sydenham then I would push that button because maybe then, just maybe some people on this forum might just think Sydenham was perfect.

[mosy]

Or you could push a button and make it into Putney high street which has lots of shops along its very long length but seems to have no soul other than people milling towards the station. Granted house prices are way above, but I doubt it's the shops wot dun that.

FromCtoShiningC has a point about entertainment generally and nightlife. I know there used to be a cinema (I read the Town Museum & Gallery doncha know), and a ballroom above the corner on Station Approach, and the pool tables in Two Halfs (and I think an upstairs one somewhere as well). Now, it's a case of whichever bigscreen TV you prefer - or am I missing something?