Researching dates of pub licenses?

[Falkor]

Can somebody please tell me the primary source for finding out when a pub first became licensed? How's Steve managed to find out all these pub dates!?
http://sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewtopic. ... da188afe4a

Also, whilst we're on the topic, how can I find out when a roman catholic church or council school was first built?

[FergussonFamily]

Have you tried the London Metropolitan Archives?

I don't know about Sydenham, but they had very comprehensive records for Camden Public Houses. And I think I was probably the first person to look at them in 50 years!

[Falkor]

What type of record(s) would I need to search there to find out when a pub first became licensed?

[FergussonFamily]

I looked at the Licensing Records for St Pancras. They were held in bound volumes and had a page for each pub with the names of the landlord and the owner, and the dates that these were transfered to someone new.

I also looked at the Rate books which are held at the Camden Local Studies & Archives Centre. I'm not sure where they would be held for Sydenham. The Rates were paid yearly and tell you the name of the ratepayer and the amount paid.

You would just need to work back to find the earliest entry.

One of the problems with this area is that it has been moved between counties and boroughs so often I wouldn't know where it was at any particular time.

[Steve Grindlay]

As FergussonFamily says, there is a number sources including rate books, land tax records, poll books, Justices of the Peace minutes and, of course, directories. They are scattered around but Lewisham Local History centre certainly has some of them. There is also a list of West Kent Alehouse Keepers which used to be at Maidstone, but might well have been moved elsewhere.

However, fortunately, Ken White (who wrote the book on the Croydon Canal mentioned elsewhere) has done much of the work for us. In 1992 he published "The Public Houses of Lee and Lewisham", hand written and privately printed. The local history centre has a copy. It is rather difficult to use, and not always accurate, but nonetheless invaluable. I've extracted every reference to every pub in Sydenham and Forest Hill and supplemented it with my own research from censuses, directories and local newspapers.

Interestingly, although he probably knows more about the pubs of Lewisham than anybody else, Ken doesn't drink and never goes into them.

[Falkor]

Thanks for your replies! Ratebooks and Censuses seem to be rather limited in their coverage. Directories seem to have more limited info. the further back in time we look up. Not sure what type of information is contained in the other records mentioned.

As a case study, how's it been possible to find out:
Crooket Billet, Perry Vale (1726-1753)
White Hart, Perry Hill (1703-1747)
There can't be many sources for the 18th century that can get pub dates down to the nearest year. I'm very impressed by Steve's work.

Can a directory tell us that the Bird-In-Hand first became licensed in 1845?

[Steve Grindlay]

... Ratebooks and Censuses seem to be rather limited in their coverage. Directories seem to have more limited info. the further back in time we look up. Not sure what type of information is contained in the other records mentioned.

They weren't intended to help the likes of us with our research; each source had a very specific purpose, which I'm sure they fulfilled. We have to be flexible and imaginative in order to extract information from them.

As a case study, how's it been possible to find out:
Crooket Billet, Perry Vale (1726-1753)
White Hart, Perry Hill (1703-1747)
There can't be many sources for the 18th century that can get pub dates down to the nearest year.
Can a directory tell us that the Bird-In-Hand first became licensed in 1845?

Records on the West Kent Alehouse Keepers, at Maidstone, cover the period 1712-1727 and 1753. They show that Thomas Glover was the licensee of a pub called the Crooked Billet in 1726 and in 1753, but do not make it clear where the pub was. Ratebooks, however, mention Thomas Glover in 1727, 1744 and 1753 seemingly in the Perry Vale area. There is also Glover's Lane on Rocque's map.

As for the Bird in Hand, the Post Office (Kent) directory for 1845 has Jonathan Rayner as a beer retailer in Sydenham. He is also in a couple of 1847 directories and, of course, he is in the 1851 census where it is possible to pinpoint exactly where his pub was because in 1851 Robert Duffin was two doors away. Duffin was a cowkeeper and dairyman, whose family still ran the dairy in 1894 at what, by then, had become 33 Dartmouth Road.

[Falkor]

Nice one, Steve! Well explained as always... One day I plan to start a topic called "How did John Coulter find this out?"
The first question would no doubt be "How did John find out the names of the early Place House landowners/occupants?"
The second question would be "How did John find out about Sydenham's 14th century residents, including the Batts, and places like Battislane?"
etc.
I reckon it would be a good idea to use John C's book as a case study for Local History and "The Making Of Sydenham And Forest Hill Past".