Bollards

[Pally]

However people strolling up the middle of the road is stupid and selfish, whatever the law!!

So what of people who spent rather too much of their childhood keeping goal in the middle of the street?
I presume you are writing as a vehicle driver which would make you quite terrifying in my eyes if I were to get in your way.

It was wonderful when, last year, a part of Lawrie Park Road was reclaimed by pedestrians for pleasure rather than have to peer out between parked cars and then sprint across to avoid speeding traffic, some of whom are unable to identify what a keep left sign is.

Car free Sundays once a month might begin to show us how much better our towns could be to live and play in. A realistic tax on car owners who sterilise our streets and pavements by long term parking might also alleviate the demand leading to the problem.

Stuart

I do drive a car but rarely, use my bike (a Brompton!!) and feet 95% of the time! My point was simply that if there is a pavement and a road and cars are driving up the road, why "stroll along the middle of the road".... being a nuisance to drivers and endangering oneself presumably!!

Playing ball on the road ....yup, can't see a problem with that in the right area, where cars are few and far between, (many years ago there were a lot less cars!) but not entirely sure its necessary when there are many Green spaces which are safer and in many ways more fun.

[_HB]

This is the issue with the lack of appetite for challenging the status quo. Why should children go to the nearest green space to play ball? There was a time when streets were not just for moving cars about. There are still countries where that is the case. We are literally decades behind the times on this one.

[stuart]

If I recall correctly campaigning to reclaim our streets was treated by our Metropolitan Police as terrorism and good, trusting and peaceful (lady) members were pursued and literally f***ed by the police. I think this shows this as an incredibly distorted view of who owns are streets and intention to keep it that way. This view is not confined to our boys in blue.

Anyway Pally give a wave when you see me. I'll be on an ancient black M3L sporting the Brommie shopping bag. I may be messing about in the middle of the road trying to do a right into the Co-op or Lidl. There are some courteous drivers but the less said about some ...

Stuart

[marymck]

By coincidence, I took these photos on Kirkdale this morning. Just another day in the paradise for parkers courtesy of Lewisham's enforcement team. (My thanks to Stuart for the techie help in getting these snaps online.)

[Pally]

This is the issue with the lack of appetite for challenging the status quo. Why should children go to the nearest green space to play ball? There was a time when streets were not just for moving cars about. There are still countries where that is the case. We are literally decades behind the times on this one.

Does this link to the number of cars about in a particular country? Presumably times have changed because of increasing traffic? These are genuine questions, I really don't know enough about the subject at a wider level!

I get your point but the reality is that in the present times with the number of cars around, children would generally be safer in the green spaces. I don't have a lack of appetite for challenging the status quo, but the issue of the amount of traffic around etc surely has to be sorted before kids can safely play on many of the streets! I'm going to ponder on this one because I do see the issue of challenging the status quo to bring about change!

[Pally]

If I recall correctly campaigning to reclaim our streets was treated by our Metropolitan Police as terrorism and good, trusting and peaceful (lady) members were pursued and literally f***ed by the police. I think this shows this as an incredibly distorted view of who owns are streets and intention to keep it that way. This view is not confined to our boys in blue.

Anyway Pally give a wave when you see me. I'll be on an ancient black M3L sporting the Brommie shopping bag. I may be messing about in the middle of the road trying to do a right into the Co-op or Lidl. There are some courteous drivers but the less said about some ...

Stuart

I certainly agree the drivers vary somewhat ..but to be fair, so do the cyclists! I'll keep an eye open for you ....Brommie shopping bag and all!

[_HB]

Does this link to the number of cars about in a particular country?

Not really. Holland is significantly more densely populated than the UK with similar levels of car ownership. They just manage it differently.

I get your point but the reality is that in the present times with the number of cars around, children would generally be safer in the green spaces.

There are two types of issues here:

1. The issue raised in the OP about pavement parking on the High Street. The simple solution is to not allow any parking on the High St - except for disabled access - and make the High Street completely pedestrianised except for access to properties, public transport and loading at certain times. There is ample off street parking for everyone else. The reality is there is no public or political appetite for this so it won't happen. But that is all that is lacking.

2. Every street is now a road. If children can't safely play on the street in a residential area, close it to through traffic. If this is done borough wide in a sensible and coherent way it can be transformational.

[Bunny]

The notion of London being like Amsterdam is laughable .For one Londons population is considerably bigger than Amsterdam . Imagine if you gave us all a bike would the roads be much different ? Yes there may be less polluted but you would still have very selfish thoughtless people doing arrogant and dangerous things .Just because you change your vessel doesn't change your behaviour .
I'm sick of hearing about bike riders and the perils they face ! Perhaps they should follow the rules of the road wait with the rest of the traffic ( as a driver I wouldn't squeeze down the inside of a very large vehicle ) . More importantly they should all have to have a mirror , have some form of registration , have to have insurance and they should also face fines for irresponsible riding !!
I for one don't want to share the pavement with a bicycle even it is driven with two kids on the front because if it rams the back of my legs it's still going to do damage !
Rather than a car free day in London perhaps we should have rush hour bike free !!

[stuart]

The notion of London being like Amsterdam is laughable .For one Londons population is considerably bigger than Amsterdam . Imagine if you gave us all a bike would the roads be much different ? Yes there may be less polluted but you would still have very selfish thoughtless people doing arrogant and dangerous things .Just because you change your vessel doesn't change your behaviour .

Have you cycled in London AND Amsterdam? The density (which is what really counts) is higher there than here. They do have congestion problems with bikes. Imagine how much worse it would be without them.

As to behaviour. If you rode in Amsterdam like you would in London then you would soon hear some very loud tut-tuts or worse. As I said earlier riding in London is a guerilla type activity. If you have to cross several lanes of trafiic (as at BGG) then to do so safely you have to ride assertively which, I suspect, drivers such as yourself may misinterpret and which you may not distinguish from bad and dangerous riding. But it has to be done.

I am really saddened by your aggressive tone which I really hope does not translate into your driving behaviour. The way you see us as one homogeneous mass of people holding you up and doing bad things to you.

Remember most of us our also drivers. If you really want a bike free day and forced us to swop - where is the extra space and lanes to accommodate us. It isn't there. That's the point. The more people who elect to take the bus, train or bike the more room will be left for people who really need to use a car. Everybody is a winner.

Peace not war between road users please. If you wish to pursue your general line of bike rage rather than the problems to us all related to illegal parking in Sydenham then let's take it to Town Pub.

Stuart

[Bunny]

Stuart I am far from an aggressive driver . I am often compared to Miss Daisy's driver and I give cyclists plenty of room as I know they can't see me as it isn't a legal requirement for them to have a MIRROR.
I actually travel by train more than I do by car , so mostly witness many silly acts by cyclists along Sydenham high street.
I no longer have the confidence to drive across central London but am often a passenger . Yes I do appreciate that a cyclist
need to be assertive when crossing six lanes of traffic but I am not misinterpreting them jumping the lights or riding two abreast to have a chat.
My post was in response to posts that suggested we could or should be like Holland not just a rant at cyclists as you suggest( although admittedly just a tad tired of the motorist being knocked ) ..no I haven't cycled in Holland but I have visited and my lasting impression of being a pedestrian there wasn't good.

I was trying to point out you don't have to be driving a car to behave recklessly or I considerately !
I do think that bikes should be insured and registered . I don't think that is aggressive or unfair?

With regards to putting bollards in place I think it would be pointless as ithe inconsiderate would just park further up the road inconsiderately.

On a final note happy and safe cycling !!

[_HB]

Close to a full house there from Bunny, great effort. Given that we're not in the pub we should try to keep this to facts.

Yes I do appreciate that a cyclist
need to be assertive when crossing six lanes of traffic but I am not misinterpreting them jumping the lights or riding two abreast to have a chat.

A TfL study showed that people in cars and people on bikes run red lights at the same rate at roughly 16% with people in cars marginally more likely to do so. People are permitted to ride two abreast, but no more. If you are in a car it is easier to safely pass two riders riding two abreast than line-a-stern.

it isn't a legal requirement for them to have a MIRROR.

Correct, and so it should be. Cycle mirrors are very poor at improving awareness. I find turning my head far more useful.

My post was in response to posts that suggested we could or should be like Holland

Why is this such a radical suggestion? Dutch cities were a lot like London 40 years ago. Congested, polluted, 6 lane ring roads, rising death toll on the roads. They changed it in the face of massive political and public inertia. What changes so radically across 80 miles of sea? Rotterdam is the largest port in Europe. What makes it so different from a large British city?

I do think that bikes should be insured and registered

90% of cyclists in London are members of either British Cycling, CTC, or the LCC. Membership of these groups comes with insurance. So the vast majority of cyclists you see are insured.

[Pally]

Does this link to the number of cars about in a particular country?

Not really. Holland is significantly more densely populated than the UK with similar levels of car ownership. They just manage it differently.

I get your point but the reality is that in the present times with the number of cars around, children would generally be safer in the green spaces.

There are two types of issues here:

1. The issue raised in the OP about pavement parking on the High Street. The simple solution is to not allow any parking on the High St - except for disabled access - and make the High Street completely pedestrianised except for access to properties, public transport and loading at certain times. There is ample off street parking for everyone else. The reality is there is no public or political appetite for this so it won't happen. But that is all that is lacking.

2. Every street is now a road. If children can't safely play on the street in a residential area, close it to through traffic. If this is done borough wide in a sensible and coherent way it can be transformational.

Interesting points. Making me think about the wider issues more.

[Eagle]

Would be great to go back to quiet streets. Why so many Londoners have cars and feel the need to pollute their
neighbourhood is beyond me.

I appreciate would need to double buses , but that would be doable over a period.

Perhaps road pricing and pavement parking pricing should come in sooner than later.

True The Netherlands does have a higher population density than UK , however England overtook the Netherlands in density in 2008.
The South East even more densely populated.

[stuart]

I'm not really into vigilante action but the dice are really loaded against legal enforcement of pavement parking. As I understand it has to be an officer who has to be wearing exact uniform (no tie, no fine) who goes through a proper procedure in affixing a ticket.

So what are Lewisham to do? Its limited in that it is a contracted out service already. Do we really want thousands more parking attendants?

Oh if the police would just give a wink and a nudge that they wouldn't take any action against little boys (or even big boys) who let down the tyres of clearly offending vehicles. Doesn't cost anybody anything (as long as they have a pump) but, perhaps, an effective deterrent if it were widespread.

Cheaper and less obstructive than bollards and covers 100% of our roads instantly.

Stuart

[monkeyarms]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-Joke-Fake-P ... 1645955821

[JRobinson]

those vehicles parked on the back edge of the pavement in your photos might be parked on private land, as opposed to public highway, so might not be able to be fined/ticketed for parking on the footway, however, to get there they must have been driven across the footway, which is itself an offence, so technically they could be fined/ticketed for that. However, I seem to recall that the offence of driving on the footway, is one of those that has to be actually witnessed, so just saying that someone must have had to have driven on the footway to end up where they are is not good enough to stand up in court.

anyway, it looks bad, and they shouldn't really be doing it, and if I lived near there, I'd probably put 'polite notice' stickers under the windscreen wipers, explaining that they shouldn't do it, and take photo's each time they do, and submit these in bulk to Lewisham Council enforcement team.

If you just stand and take photo's someone will probably approach you to ask what you're doing, and you can explain that they're parked illegally, or they've driven on the footway illegally, and that you're collecting evidence to submit so that they get fined. This might be enough to dissuade them in the future, but probably not, as parking fines are almost considered a built in part of the cost of running a shop thesedays.

[Pally]

I'm sick of hearing about bike riders and the perils they face ! Perhaps they should follow the rules of the road wait with the rest of the traffic ( as a driver I wouldn't squeeze down the inside of a very large vehicle ) . More importantly they should all have to have a mirror , have some form of registration , have to have insurance and they should also face fines for irresponsible riding !!
I for one don't want to share the pavement with a bicycle even it is driven with two kids on the front because if it rams the back of my legs it's still going to do damage !
Rather than a car free day in London perhaps we should have rush hour bike free !!

As a driver I am well aware that it is the bad driving I observe that I remember .... and I take the good driving (the majority) rather for granted! As a cyclist I am also well aware that it is the bad cycling I see that I remember , and again I take the good cycling (again the majority) for granted. So most drivers don't drive badly around me when I'm cycling and most cyclists don't cause me problems when I am driving!

As a cyclist I would most certainly never squeeze down the inside of a large vehicle, or jump red lights. As a driver I wouldn't either! Neither would the majority of cyclists or drivers in my view .....but no, I don't have statistical back up!

[marymck]

those vehicles parked on the back edge of the pavement in your photos might be parked on private land, as opposed to public highway, so might not be able to be fined/ticketed for parking on the footway, however, to get there they must have been driven across the footway, which is itself an offence, so technically they could be fined/ticketed for that. However, I seem to recall that the offence of driving on the footway, is one of those that has to be actually witnessed, so just saying that someone must have had to have driven on the footway to end up where they are is not good enough to stand up in court.

anyway, it looks bad, and they shouldn't really be doing it, and if I lived near there, I'd probably put 'polite notice' stickers under the windscreen wipers, explaining that they shouldn't do it, and take photo's each time they do, and submit these in bulk to Lewisham Council enforcement team.

If you just stand and take photo's someone will probably approach you to ask what you're doing, and you can explain that they're parked illegally, or they've driven on the footway illegally, and that you're collecting evidence to submit so that they get fined. This might be enough to dissuade them in the future, but probably not, as parking fines are almost considered a built in part of the cost of running a shop thesedays.

Some shops have a small curtilage. But not wide enough to park a car on. And not all have a curtilage. Wooster and Stock don't for instance. And unless they've been parachuted into place they have driven across the kerb and pavement to get there. They're damaging the pavements, making them hazardous to walk on and causing an obstruction. Bring on the bollards, I say. Or better still, a garden. Some kind of barrier would be cheaper than replacing the pavement, only to have these selfish jerks destroy it again.

It would be awfully nice if bollards were erected while the cars were parked there, trapping them in. But I guess that's too much to hope for.

(Edited for spelling!)

[alburt.c]

many bad car driver and many bad biker. many good car driver and many good biker also. this is fact of peeples..

car parker not always show respect here. bollards stop bad car park on walk path is fact.

[robbieduncan]

It would be awfully nice if bollards were erected while the cars were parked there, trapping them in. But I guess that's too much to hope for.

Like the rather famous photo being debunked here?http://www.snopes.com/photos/automobiles/bollards.asp