miscellaneous views

Falkor · Post by **Falkor** » 10 Feb 2008 21:43

However is there a cost on storage or bandwidth use? I wouldn't like ADMIN to be out of pocket. In reality I don't know how this forum is funded - but it can't be free.

I have to pay for the bandwidth of my images--not the forum. Same with people using FlckR without limitations. Of course the admin has to pay for other expenses with running this forum.

Falkor · Post by **Falkor** » 10 Feb 2008 21:54

I think, really, we're all on much the same wavelength, here, and its a complicated issue, these days, copyright etc...

Pretty much... Steve, Terry, yourself and I have done much contributing lately. But not everyone sees what we do as even being a contribution. The general view of the Virtual Norwood spies is a negative one based on most of our stuff being copyrighted. There is a lot of sick people out there you know... I heard a story about a Muslim man who murdered his own daughter because she wasn't following the rules of their culture. Anyway, I think there's something seriously wrong with people who base their lives around silly rules. For people to feel that way about copyright with regards to historical images of the local area is truly pathetic.

tulse hill terry · Post by **tulse hill terry** » 10 Feb 2008 21:55

I think this is where the virtual aspect of the net has raced ahead of conventional holding of "hard copy" material by libraries.

You are free to read information in a library.

To call something up on the net is to be sent a copy.

Reading something, or listening to a song, is nor the same as copying it.

There are economics involved, the expenses of staff and building for a library for example. The lisencing of images by the V&A is used to raise funds for the museum as a whole.

I don't think the wealth of material that appears for sale on the net, would continue if nobody bought it for example.

The technical aspect of reproducing images, at leat 300 dpi for printing, is why many bodies withold high resolution copies unless money is in the equation. A high resolution image of an antique desk doesn't have the commercial value of an actual antique desk. I have often seen one seller using the image of something tangible from someone else's listing, to try and sell another example. There is potential for fraud, must also be why some picture libraries and sellers on the net, watermark or restrict the resolution of their images.

Falkor · Post by **Falkor** » 10 Feb 2008 21:59

I don't get you.

I use the convention of lurkers, as people who read but don't respond.

Audiences are by nature passive. That is their freedom. I'm sure amongst them there are some who could contribute, but that is their choice.

The internet is public, people are free to read whatever sites they want.

It's inevitable that there should be an overlap of readership between virtualnorwood and sydenham town forum. I always think that what is local history for example, depends on what is local to a particular local historian.

True, but then, if they only intend to lurk around all day then they have no right to pass judgement. It's a bit like that guy JVLFord... What gave him the right to appear out of nowhere and start criticing me because of copyrighted images? He was supposedly interested in the Crystal Palace, yet showed no appreciation of your topic. That is the kind of lurker I detest.

will greenwood · Post by **will greenwood** » 10 Feb 2008 22:04

Publish and be damned!
if theres a complaint, remove the image and apologise...
no ones making a bean out of this, as far as i'm aware, so its all amateur dramatics, isnt it?

If anyone needs more info on anything I post, they are welcome to enquire, and I'll do my best to impart my enthusiasm and sources in equal measure.

I dont hink we need go further than that.

I'm intrigued about 'Virtual Norwood spies'...an interesting concept!

tulse hill terry · Post by **tulse hill terry** » 10 Feb 2008 22:06

True, but then, if they only intend to lurk around all day then they have no right to pass judgement.

That's the price of posting on a public forum. The nature of the internet means you are going to intereact with the opinions and prejudices of strangers with no preamble.

There's always [hopefully] going to be a wider audience for the work of a minority surely?

There wouldn't be much point in us posting what we all knew already, e.g. telling each other what we had for breakfast.

If anyone needs more info on anything I post, they are welcome to enquire

I don't see the problem with doing it when one posts. If it's somthing on ebay, why not give everyone a chance to bid, and the seller their due.

will greenwood · Post by **will greenwood** » 10 Feb 2008 22:16

I don't see the problem with doing it when one posts.

ebay?

I'm not selling anything!
I'm simply sharing some images and information in the hope of lively and informative debate, in order to discover things I have hitherto missed.

I know I could have done with more than ;
'Egyptian Mummy - Old Egypt' in Horniman's museum when I was a kid, but I asked a few questions, and the stories would unfold.....leading me to find out more on my own...

tulse hill terry · Post by **tulse hill terry** » 10 Feb 2008 22:19

Stuff is posted here from personal collections, copies from libraries and websites including ebay.

I think it's only fair to both buyers and sellers to post images from sellers listings when they are still for sale, when this is possible.

Steve Grindlay · Post by **Steve Grindlay** » 10 Feb 2008 22:20

This site carries ads to raise revenue, although they are discrete and my browser allows me to hide them.

Citations are important because, by giving the source, it is possible to access the value of the information. I can think several examples (lock-keeper's cottage on Stanstead Road, house in which the Duke of Clarence stayed, German embassy in Sydenham) that have been so often repeated that many now believe them to be true, and continue to repeat them. Yet I, and others, have been unable to find any firm evidence to support these, and similar, claims. This doesn't mean that they are wrong, only that, because the source is not known, it is impossible to confirm them.

will greenwood · Post by **will greenwood** » 10 Feb 2008 22:25

Citations are important because, by giving the source, it is possible to access the value of the information. I can think several examples (lock-keeper's cottage on Stanstead Road, house in which the Duke of Clarence stayed, German embassy in Sydenham) that have been so often repeated that many now believe them to be true, and continue to repeat them. Yet I, and others, have been unable to find any firm evidence to support these, and similar, claims.

I agree, completely, for that kind of historical fact.

I dont think it so important to say which library holds a photo, especially if is freely downloadable via the web, but I'm happy to do so where there is more information or further images.

perhaps we can agree a 'code of practise' tha we can all agree on...

tulse hill terry · Post by **tulse hill terry** » 10 Feb 2008 22:36

I'm happy to do so where there is more information or further images.

That is the reason why I think it is important to always cite sources. The source could lead to other areas of research to a reader/lurker, unimagined by the original post-er.

I am always amazed at the variety or questions I recieve, that only touch lightly on the Crystal Palace, my [obvious] main area of interest. I've recently been asked if the inventor of a brand of toothpaste could have had a private office in the Palace, by someone from Canada writing a novel! Someone from the Pitt-rivers Museum emailed to ask if there were any Tibetans in the Ethnographic displays!

I couldn't be more passionate about access, and have no desire to give anyone the impression that I am the only person who knows everything about a given subject, or that I have a magic source of information.

It's up to you how seriously you want readers to take the material you post on this forum.

tulse hill terry · Post by **tulse hill terry** » 10 Feb 2008 22:53

I totally agree with you Steve, but I do think that my be too involved for general posting, and the background might be assessed in the context of the original source.

I was fascinated to see on the back of the Bemrose series of Festival of Empire cards recently posted on ebay, a picture of Horatio Bottomley.

I don't own any of these cards, or even seen them in person, but was fascinated to discover this Edwardian character who swindled his way through several companies, was an M.P. and ended his days with a one man show on the stage of the Windmill Theatre.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CRYSTAL-PALACE-Fe ... dZViewItem

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatio_Bottomley

Whoops, I didn't quote you, and you've removed your post!

Falkor · Post by **Falkor** » 10 Feb 2008 23:07

On this forum, I feel there isn't enough people interested in local history to keep remembering to cite sources for every image I post. If anything, I'm trying to get non-academics interested--perhaps somebody who has just moved into the area. I don't think there's going to be any major writer visiting here who will need to know source information. If ever this does happen, they can always reply to a topic or send a PM. However, I have noticed that some people have problems communicating. On my website, I always credit things like sources and dates, as it's not open to discussion. Libraries is another place where sources are more rigorously cited, considering it's a place for both amateurs and pros, and the staff are likely to get more requests for information (cited sources makes their job easier).

tulse hill terry · Post by **tulse hill terry** » 10 Feb 2008 23:19

Well I can't think of anything more persausive to say re sources, though I will question you closely next time you ask me for one.

Like anything presented to the public, one seldom has any idea why one thing is of interest compared to another. I never know why one piece of my work sells, while others are ignored.

With the Crystal Palace for example, there is interest locally, as well as internationally by subject.

With Sydenham generally it's interesting to see the overlap between ex residents and people with ancestors from the area, and those who currently live in the area.

If anything, I'm trying to get non-academics interested

As much as I have enjoyed the Croydon Canal threads, you have to admit they're pretty intense!

Libraries is another place where sources are more rigorously cited, considering it's a place for both amateurs and pros, and the staff are likely to get more requests for information (cited sources makes their job easier).

Surely you mean *possible!*

Falkor · Post by **Falkor** » 10 Feb 2008 23:44

Well I can't think of anything more persausive to say re sources, though I will question you closely next time you ask me for one.

I might need to know a source when working on my website, otherwise I don't usually require them. You are welcome to ask me for a source any time. You have a tongue, so it's not a problem.

Like anything presented to the public, one seldom has any idea why one thing is of interest compared to another. I never know why one piece of my work sells, while others are ignored.

Well, it can't be through this forum, that's for sure...

With the Crystal Palace for example, there is interest locally, as well as internationally by subject.

Right. None of the locals who check/spy on this forum have bothered to reply to your topic. That should show you the level of interest, and you should ask yourself if it warrants the extra effort of having to cite sources each time. Unless I'd had requests for source information that equalled 25-50% of the number topic views then it's a waste of time.

With Sydenham generally it's interesting to see the overlap between ex residents and people with ancestors from the area, and those who currently live in the area.

I think the level of interest with regards local history and types of users comes down to how long a person has lived in the area--past or present. Genealogy is a much bigger industry than local history, so we often get people asking for pictures/information about an ancestor/road, yet they might never have even visited Sydenham before. I don't quite know how I feel about this 3rd type...

As much as I have enjoyed the Croydon Canal threads, you have to admit they're pretty intense!

Will is now past the eye candy stage of local historic interest, so we've started getting into deeper conversation about the sources etc.

Surely you mean *possible!*

I don't get you now...

will greenwood · Post by **will greenwood** » 10 Feb 2008 23:45

As much as I have enjoyed the Croydon Canal threads, you have to admit they're pretty intense! Laughing

I agree!
far moreintense than I expected...not always pleasant either...
but we are AMATEURS, so its amazing that we find any concensus...let alone make some breakthroughs...

this thread is very aptly titled;
Miscellaneous views'

well, its amazing how things turn, eh?

tulse hill terry · Post by **tulse hill terry** » 10 Feb 2008 23:50

this thread is very aptly titled; Miscellaneous Views'

Very True! And thanks for reminding us.

I think Local History reseach has got to be one of the most thankless tasks. It does get lost amongst the passion.

The stories I could post about the politics!

will greenwood · Post by **will greenwood** » 10 Feb 2008 23:53

Will is now past the eye candy stage of local historic interest, so we've started getting into deeper conversation about the sources etc.

I had a teacher who was into local studies when I waas a kid at Dalmain rd, consequently I was well past that when I first went on a hunt for the canal in the 1970's..

the thing is, I could never access more than a few snippets of information, and received several cold shoulders from manor park over the years....Its onl;y recently all this material is available, alowing me to complete 40 years of wondering....

yeah, we all need the information...but even at the OU, it took me several years to figutre out how to access the databases.....
We do need to ask questions, and break the 'wall' in order to progress.

........and being away from a place certainly does endear one to it...

I dont think I could ever live in London again, but my memories will always draw me back...
....& I certainly do NOT feel the same way about other London districts I have lived in..

will greenwood · Post by **will greenwood** » 10 Feb 2008 23:56

.

Local History reseach has got to be one of the most thankless tasks. It does get lost amongst the passion

..at least train spotters can actually produce a real train, eh?....quite often we're talking about things that will never be seen again....

tulse hill terry · Post by **tulse hill terry** » 11 Feb 2008 00:08

Will is now past the eye candy stage of local historic interest, so we've started getting into deeper conversation about the sources etc.

Well, there you go about sources, I don't know who said that about you, though I can guess. I think you have more than proved you have the credentials, if that is the right word!

Edit Can't keep up with this thread, just realised I missed Falkor's post.

I could never find out anything about the Palace, just footnotes after the Great Exhibition was covered.

I could never find out exactly what I wanted to know about the Palace over the years, and then came the internet, which enables you to pursue a subject as much or as little as you want to.

The only reason I have been posting info on the Palace recently is in connection with the LDA's Masterplan, I do want people to have the chance to make an informed choice about the future of the park, in light of the past, that is if the public really does have a say.

That and to prove that no one has a monopoly on the subject.

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miscellaneous views