'What if'... two new exciting venues for SE26?

[FromCtoShiningC]

Whilst walking through Sydenham the other day, I thought it was sad that some of the historic spaces we have, are not operational (either being lived in, or open to the public).
Two in particular crossed my mind:
a) the old Post Office sorting office in Silverdale - a lovely red brick, turn of the 19th/20th (Queen Anne Style?) building which could serve as a great bar/pub/community hall/shop - you name it.... I believe there was discussion about this in the past, and that the owner didn't wish to sell
b) the small building (wooden I think, with exterior tiles) on the corner of the High Street and as one starts off down Newlands Park Road, but before Homecroft Road (on the side opposite the bookmakers). That again would make a great space, with a small courtyard

Up and down the country (including London), the re-using of historic buildings for the community is something that makes my heart soar - So, what a shame if some of the hidden jewels of our town would be left to crumble....

[leenewham]

Totally agree. The small building with tiles has had a planning application to tear it down. But it would have made a great bar/restaurant with a garden and outside seating.

The Old Sorting office is an amazing space inside, flooded with natural light and some great spaces out the back. It has huge potential for many uses, but the owner, who seems to have at various times (or even currently) owned large parts of Krikdale doesn't really seem to be keen on the area, otherwise Kirkdale wouldn't look the way it does now and the sorting office would have been turned into something of value to the community. It could have been anything, from a nursery, to a gym, an indoor market, soft play centre, artists studios, theatre or even space. It has so much potential and all of them would lead to regeneration.

HIgh streets need mixes of use, which is slowly happening. The layering that Ed Holloway talked about in the Portas Pilot is the way forward, and it's slowly happening, but high streets are very slow to change. There are exciting businesses here like On The Hoof, The Marketplace, Brown & Green, Sugahill who all layer their business with events, art, workshops, music evenings etc that cater for different markets at different times.

There are exciting things happening in Penge which seems more able to adapt, partly because the people making things happen are grass roots and creative. Similar things are happening in South Norwood. If you are interested in regeneration, keen an eye on these two places.

[mosy]

I'm not sure anything can be done (by the Council) about privately owned properties unless transgressing in some way, as discussed in the other thread. Such a shame about the sorting office. Fortunately, I doubt it will crumble any time soon as buildings of that era were built to last. Does anyone know if that has a Sydenham historic/community order (I forget the proper name) applied to it?

The good thing about Sydenham Road is that there are virtually no empty shops, for which credit at least in part is due to the Council after it finally got round to renovating the road and pavements, together with allowing short term parking and retaining the free car park at Girton Road.

[leenewham]

Lack of empty shops is also part of the problem. They help drive down rents which in turn is a breeding ground for new businesses. Nearly all the new And soon to be new) exciting businesses have come about due to empty shops, be it the Marketplace, On The Hoof, Late Knights, Calabash, Inkwa, Harbour 21 etc.

They were all empty a while before opening.

Sydenham didn't have many empty shops anyway (although the Greyhound developments has quite a few!).

Empty shops are a blight, but also an opportunity. I'd rather an empty shop than lots of shops selling exactly the same thing in the same way with the same shopping experience.

[mosy]

Lack of empty shops is also part of the problem. They help drive down rents which in turn is a breeding ground for new businesses. Nearly all the new And soon to be new) exciting businesses have come about due to empty shops, be it the Marketplace, On The Hoof, Late Knights, Calabash, Inkwa, Harbour 21 etc.

They were all empty a while before opening.

Sydenham didn't have many empty shops anyway (although the Greyhound developments has quite a few!).

Empty shops are a blight, but also an opportunity. I'd rather an empty shop than lots of shops selling exactly the same thing in the same way with the same shopping experience.

[my bold]

Surely no, or very few, empty shops means there's more incentive to snap them up when they do become available? OK, maybe not by "gentrification" businesses, but hey, nothing more depressing than a "dying" high street that I can think of.

I can't remember why the outlets near the Greyhound aren't occupied. I'm sure (I think) that they are tied in to the Greyhound? I know it's not your forté to be up on such possibly legally connected matters leenewham, so more asking if anyone else can remember why they're still empty.

[Eagle]

I also would like an exciting and prosperous high street.

I also boycott Amazon and other internet companies which are destroying our high street.

I trust others who want a nice High Street are doing the same.

[robbieduncan]

I also would like an exciting and prosperous high street.

I also boycott Amazon and other internet companies which are destroying our high street.

I trust others who want a nice High Street are doing the same.

Quite simply no. I will pay a premium for a premium service on the high street. But if I already know exactly what I want and am willing to put up with delivery etc I'll shop online and feel no shame

[Eagle]

Then you are assisting the destruction of commerce in The High Street.

That is , of course , your right and choice , but do not then pretend you are trying to improve the High Street.

[Robin Orton]

I agree with Robbie. The only time I would normally consider buying stuff on the High Street (except in emergency or for small low-value items such as toiletries or batteries) is when I'm not sure what I want or need help and advice from someone with expertise in what they are selling. The personal touch, in other words.

I had a wonderful experience in Bromley M&S yesterday, doing my triennial clothes shop. The assistants showed me where everything was, suggested things I might like (but in a non-pushy way) and laughed at my jokes. I came out feeling twice the man. That's what one wants from the High Street which one can't get on line.

Too often though shopkeepers round here give the impression of not really liking their customers and of not being prepared to put themselves out to help them.

[mosy]

...[clip]...

Too often though shopkeepers round here give the impression of not really liking their customers and of not being prepared to put themselves out to help them.

Crikey, where do you shop along the high street to come away with that impression? There's only one I know who will probably never in a million years give anyone an American toothpaste smile, but who nevertheless knows his stuff and is helpful. Most do have toothpaste smiles (well, the English version lol) and will summon help or go themselves. I don't know of any lackadaisical dismissive ("If it's not on the shelf...") small shopkeepers. As you are implying multiple shopkeepers, maybe you should say which ones, then I can argue with your blanket comment

As for shopping online or elsewhere, it's self evident that one can only buy what is being sold so the high street is unlikely to be a single port of call. Local shops do have the advantage in competitive terms that they don't charge £5 P&P or parking (as in Bromley car parks). Sydenham DIY et al are good examples of being as competitive as online or "sheds". I guess it depends what people want to buy.

[Eagle]

Mosy/ Robin

Shopping in M and S Bromley is shopping in a High Street and should be applauded.

I am against shopping on internet and also places live Blue wasser .

I to buy 100% of my clothing in M and S and have done for decades. Difficult to see why people of a certain age would go any where else.

Have a good weekend and shop in a High Street .

[Robin Orton]

Too often though shopkeepers round here give the impression of not really liking their customers and of not being prepared to put themselves out to help them.

. As you are implying multiple shopkeepers, maybe you should say which ones, then I can argue with your blanket comment

I'm not going to say exactly where, but I can think immediately of three off-putting experiences I have had recently, two in Forest Hill and one in Sydenham. One was simply surliness, one was appalling rudeness, and the other was wrong advice about the product I was buying.

Nevertheless, I admit I may have been too sweeping. But the general point I was trying to make is that high street shopping has a future only if it offers what the internet cannot, that is, a friendly welcome and helpful advice from a real person who you can form a (however fleeting) relationship with.

[Pally]

[quote="Robin Orton"
[/quote]. But the general point I was trying to make is that high street shopping has a future only if it offers what the internet cannot, that is, a friendly welcome and helpful advice from a real person who you can form a (however fleeting) relationship with.[/quote]

Fresh and Fruity and Billings are perfect examples of this! As is the shoe repair and key place in the high street and the opticians!

[parker]

I had a wonderful experience in Bromley M&S yesterday, doing my triennial clothes shop. The assistants showed me where everything was, suggested things I might like (but in a non-pushy way) and laughed at my jokes. I came out feeling twice the man. That's what one wants from the High Street which one can't get on line.

What one can't get in Sydenham neither...

[leenewham]

Robin is right.

Shops need to compete, they are not charities, they need to learn their reputation, love and trade. Some in Sydenham do, others don't. And I know I will attract the usual chorus of 'how dare you say that!'. I'm loyal to various local businesses, but much of what I want or need can't be found in Sydenham aside form eating out, which doesn't happen that often, and when it does, I want it to be really memorable and special, to try new things, which is why we often go elsewhere.

Many 'local shops' (not specifically Sydenham) aren't owned by local people anyway, especially in London, unless local is denied by 'within 20 miles'.

I met a shop yesterday we are working with in Mitcham and he lives in Cambridge. Another shop we are working with lives 20 miles away from their business. A landlord we worked with in Bromley Town lived in Penge. Sydenham has a fair amount of local owners, On The Hoof, Trattoria and others are all extremely locally owned businesses. But don't assume that every local shop is owned by a local person.

It's all very good blaming the internet, parking or whatever for lack of trade, but ultimately the main reason high streets are struggling is to do with the shops. Either through not grouping together to make their voices heard and let the councils know about their problems in strong traders groups (Cllrs should not chair these, traders should), which is essential; or not changing to the wants and needs of customers.

[Pally]

I had a wonderful experience in Bromley M&S yesterday, doing my triennial clothes shop. The assistants showed me where everything was, suggested things I might like (but in a non-pushy way) and laughed at my jokes. I came out feeling twice the man. That's what one wants from the High Street which one can't get on line.

What one can't get in Sydenham neither...

You can fro the shops I mentioned above ...Billings; Fresh and Fruity; Opticians by the bridge; key cutter and shoe menders in the high street.... and Atlanta dry cleaners is friendly and helpful too

[mosy]

Just for interest, I see that Google Streetview has updated Sydenham Road. You can date it approximately as it shows when the road near Lloyds Bank/station bridge was dug up for gas works.

It's really disappointing that the photographs were taken early morning judging by sun & shadow length/direction, so before many of the roller shutters had been raised. The new pavements and road surfaces etc look good though.
---

I agree that there are virtually no clothes shops. I suspect that cheap seasonal high turnover shops like Primark and TKMaxx saw them off. ICKX (gawd knows how it's pronounced) Menswear are really good for quality and service (opposite the Co-op) but aren't exactly trying to appeal to M&S customers for footfall shoppers.

It's hard to wrap my brain around the argument that "M&S is still a high street shop" when it's no different from other big corporations who want to corner the market (if only they could) and squeeze others out. M&S sell online of course, Primark doesn't incidentally.

On locally owned, leenewham's point, does it matter? (As long as it's not a chain in disguise.) If the objective is to prevent the march towards generic high streets or one-stop supermarkets, who cares where the shop lessees live? Can't say I do. Whoever they are, they're people trying to make a go of a shop, no mean feat, and all the better for foot shoppers.

[leenewham]

You may not care Mosy, but many people do. Supporting local shops is often bandied about as being a major reason to shop local. I'm merely pointing out that the local shop may not be as local as people think they are. Nothing to get particularly worked up about.

I shop as ethically as possible, but that doesn't always mean local shops. Sometimes it's online, often independent, often in charity shops and second hand for clothes.

[Eagle]

No one who shops on line , or at the out of town fiasco's , can complain about their local High Street. Simple

[Nigel]

I agree with Lee on one level eg shops are not charities ( except for the charity shops ) but I still think we owe loyalty to our high street and should make an effort to buy locally .
The distance between shop and owner doesn't concern me as they still have a vested interest in a prosperous high street . I am not sure about "exciting " as a construct - DIY fr instance is a fantastic thing to have ( and we have a great one ) so I think it's more about the mix which has to include the shops that some of us wil not find exciting .
The sweeping judgement of surliness ( and that based on 66% forest hill evidence ) is not helpful or accurate . I also think the compulsive use of amazon had become a wierd counter intuitive badge of honour . Personally I despise them and never use them for obvious reasons .
The old "use it before you lose it " still holds good in my view .

A very local morning
Nigel