Croydon Canal route: Honor Oak Park to Brockley

[will greenwood]

..in fact, what there ISN'T..is a track to brockley way bridge!!!!

[Falkor]

look...
I am allowed to have my opinions...and I'm afraid I think a massive earthwork like that needs explanation...

Of course you can, but these new opinions regarding an imaginary pathway--aligned somehow with the bank--are not supported by any evidence. The massive earthwork, ie. the embankment, has already been explained as the western bank of the canal that varied in width.

I can pin point the locks as paths on the embankment...and the empty lock pounds further down dont fit with your overlay...

You mean horizontal paths going east and west over the locks? Or a pathway running in the same direction as the canal/embankment?

How do you know the empty lock pounds don't fit with the overlay? It's kind of difficult to match up the photograph with the map considering the fireworks huts are so scattered around.

I think we need to agree to differ, here...or get bogged down....

First, I need to make sure I fully understand your claims, and you need to make sure you understand my rebuttals and have verified my overlays for accuracy. As long as we understand each other's hypothesis and have analysed all evidence put forward then we can agree to differ, but I feel there is a misunderstanding like before.

I have found much in the way of evidence in the aerials to show a different path that fits more closely with the one we started with...it fits the physical properties of the landscape and the surrounding markers....
consequently...

Does this mean you're dismissing the route uncovered by the overlaying of maps?

I would trust the plan maps and the aerials over the estate maps...and the evidence on the ground is fairly plain..

How can you say that? I matched the estate map with the Ordnance Survey map so damn precisely, as shown by the matching field boundaries, ponds, and roads. You obviously haven't checked my overlay.

if, as you say there is no connection between canal and embankment...well, explain the embankment!!!

This has already been explained by my series of overlays on the previous page. There is a connection, but not in the way you thought. Along most of the canal stretch, the existing railway embankments were previously the canal embankments, since the canal banks on the estate map matches up with the railway banks on the Ordnance Survey map. The canal is right between the banks around Brockley Way, but once it reaches Dead Lane things go pear-shaped. The alignment of the canal is seen to be drifting towards it's own western bank until they meet at the fireworks huts.

it certainly looks, at least like a hegrow along the west bank of the canal on all the maps that mark it...and the estate maps would ignore canal earthworks because they wouldnt have been part of the estate structure, belonging to the canal company.

That's possible, but then the estate's plot boundaries are atleast marked by the embankments.

...and the only evidence you have for this new route are these estate maps.....all the other maps disagree....

As I've explained, the estate maps tie in perfectly with the OS map, so which map disgrees, and on which part of the route?

how steep do you reckon the cutting for the canal was?

I'm sure the dimensions will be in the book. Was it 5 feet?

could it just have been brockley vale...and then a cutting later?

Dunno mate...

but...to be honest...I'm feeling a bit crap about the whole thing really!

You not enjoying the challenge and all the new insights we've been gaining? I thought we knew everything about the Brockley to Honor Oak Park route before we started this debate, but the amount of new stuff I've learnt since then is amazing. I could never have found this all out on my own. The more problems solved, the more questions get raised. It's not possible to answer them all, so we just have to accept that.

[will greenwood]

I just dont like the way you seem to totally dismiss my ideas...

the canal was 5 ft or so DEEP....but your map implys that it was also cut into the ground like the railway cutting...

the photo shows the ground dewscending to wards the bridge...it also shows where the factory plot ends, and the bank stops...with the dug out lock behiond as the ground drops away...
the maps are quite clear here...as is the pathway... to the west of the canal...
are you confusing this with brockley way?
I need to see these maps of yours myself....

the embankment isn't part of the railway cuttings at all...its too far away ....

and, unless its the actual canal route thats been filled and piled up, it must be a remnant of something previously extant....

its banked mainly on the west , and most of the spoli from the railway would have gone to flattening the factory area...

check out the idea of a lock in that lumpy ground near the bridgw in the photo.....

dismantle a lock...let the water pool, and evaporate....
Voila!!!

sorry, mate...but, I'm not feeling well at this end...and it just feels a bit negative sometimes.....

I want the connection disproved by another piece of evidence...
I really think an aerial shot of that area before the big infill would solve this.....the locks had to be somewhere...and would be difficult to disguise

...and there are tantalising sloping features marked going into the cutting...

is it possible ther would be any record of the building and landscaping of the crematorium..
that circular feature is directly next to the lock and has been seriously infilled....to the tune of 30 - 40 feet
(remember, nunhead and honor oak was having reservoirs dug nearby, so fill material was plentiful)

signs of that infilling would help....and the crematorium would be absent on wartime photos....

Does anyone else have any ideas?
...(before Falkor and I explode in a frenzy of minute detail)

I'm going to try the Open University's open library...there might be acces to old aerials there...

(somerset council has a sitre where you can view recent aerials with the 1946 survey, with archaelogical sites overlayed....shame Lewisham hasnt sorted that one, eh?

http://webapp1.somerset.gov.uk/her/map. ... &prn=44199

[kennyb2]

There is an central archive in Swindon which carries all ariel photos of Britain,
but I`m damned if I can remeber its proper name

I really must get rid of the aluminium saucepans......

I think you two are going to need a mini digger..........or, stat up a re-enactement society for Irish navvys, they could dig it all out again.

[and before the PC brigade starting screaming racist...

Navvy=navigators, as all the Irish guys who dug the canals[navigations] were called

[will greenwood]

or, stat up a re-enactement society for Irish navvys, they could dig it all out again.

...you've cracked it, mate!!

I dont think we'll be satisfied till those locks are rebuilt and that pesky railway filled in

[Falkor]

I just dont like the way you seem to totally dismiss my ideas...

Sorry if I sound dismissive, mate. I'm just trying to examine all your arguements in a scientific, open-minded approach, but you don't seem to be acknowledging everything I'm saying, as well as the overlay work I did last night.

the canal was 5 ft or so DEEP....but your map implys that it was also cut into the ground like the railway cutting...

The outer banks match up to what most of the surviving banks look like today, but the maps cannot help us figure out what the inner banks were like before they were completely cut away for the railway. The maps only give us accurate information in 2 dimensions.

the photo shows the ground dewscending to wards the bridge...it also shows where the factory plot ends, and the bank stops...with the dug out lock behiond as the ground drops away...

Yep, the ground decended into the railway cutting, as it does today. I don't see the bank stopping; it appears continuous judging by the photo and OS map. Yep, I can see the dug out locks.

the maps are quite clear here...as is the pathway... to the west of the canal...
are you confusing this with brockley way?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2007/224 ... 1c83_o.jpg
Right, I can spot a short pathway on the OS map going from the west bank at Brockley Way, running down to just below Dead Lane then it fades away. I admit this looks like a pathway, an insignificant one at that, and it couldn't have been used for towing, if in existence at the time of the canal, considering it was so far away (on the other side of the double bank). Remember, around Brockley Way and Dead Lane the canal and bank had drifted apart, so it's much wider between the pathway and the canal.

Again you've failed to address the question regarding my latest overlay: which route did your pathway take? Well, I can see now that you are in agreement with route 1 (west of the bank). As I've just explained, this pathway is too far away from the canal, except at the point where it finishes below dead lane. Here, the canal would have turned westwards, coming from Deptford, to meet up with the pathway at the edge of the bank.

I need to see these maps of yours myself....

I provided them when I presented the overlay. You can get them on the previous pages.

the embankment isn't part of the railway cuttings at all...its too far away ....

This is what I'm trying to explain and show with my overlays. The railway company made use of the existing canal banks in the case of the railway line being on the same alignment. In stretches where the routes differed, they left the canal banks in situe, ie. from Dead Lane to the fireworks huts. At the firework huts, the canal ended up on top of the bank, or to put it another way, right at the edge of the bank, allowing us to see where the locks were removed. If the view continued more to the right, I'm sure it would have showed the bank flattening out as the canal came further towards the soutwest and right across the former alignment of it's embankment. If the photo was instead taken near Brockley Way, we wouldn't be able to make out where the locks were removed because along this particular stretch the canal was right inside the outer bank and the inner bank, along the alignment of the railway.

and, unless its the actual canal route thats been filled and piled up, it must be a remnant of something previously extant....

We've already established that the railway banks and the bank from the photo were previously in use during the days of the canal.

its banked mainly on the west , and most of the spoli from the railway would have gone to flattening the factory area...

That's an incredible amount of spoil removed for the railway, considering how far down the line runs. I don't think it's rational to speculate where they dumped it. Perhaps it's officially documented somewhere, like in a book about the construction of that particular railway line or stored in the railway company's offices. The fireworks huts definitely weren't levelled off by railway spoil, otherwise you wouldn't be able to see where the locks were removed.

I want the connection disproved by another piece of evidence...
I really think an aerial shot of that area before the big infill would solve this.....the locks had to be somewhere...and would be difficult to disguise

I don't see how that's going to help over the photo we have combined with the early OS map, but then I don't see what problems are remaining with this section of the canal. Sure, there was a minor pathway from Brockley Way to below Dead Lane, but it's not a towpath, which, officially, was on the eastern side of the canal.

is it possible ther would be any record of the building and landscaping of the crematorium..
that circular feature is directly next to the lock and has been seriously infilled....to the tune of 30 - 40 feet
(remember, nunhead and honor oak was having reservoirs dug nearby, so fill material was plentiful)

Dunno mate.

[kennyb2]

A thought re spoil
perhaps the railway spoil was not dumped but moved somewhere else to build up the low bits of the track way?

[Falkor]

A thought re spoil
perhaps the railway spoil was not dumped but moved somewhere else to build up the low bits of the track way?

That's what I'm thinking! Right now, for months on end, there has been spoil taken from the Tesco construction site in Orpington. It's being the dumped in St Paul's Cray Hill park some 3 miles away. The park has completely transformed and you wouldn't be able to recognise it or make any connection with the past. Fortunately, I took some photos last year, which have now become rare.

[will greenwood]

I'm sorry Falkor...
but you are missing things that are right under your nose,mate

the part i pointed out, below the end of the factory and behind, is on the site of the crenmatorium...NOT in the railway cutting...
please check the landscape
dont forget the spoil from the reservoirs

dont ignore the ONLY path to brockley way...insignificant as it may seeem, because it joined up, at some point with dead lane and the embankment...

the embankment is not marked on canal maps...because it IS the canal....
or a part of it....

I'm sorry mate....but you are not seeing it...

the present area around brockley mews is filled to a depth of 40 iodd feet...
plus the high embankment that still persists beyond the bridge...thsi is something you refuse to take into consideration...

the canal was 34 odd feet wide...thats all

it couldnt get to the cutting so quickly without a major eastward bend

the land sloped away from the top lack, which it DOESN't do today

the embankment follows a large section of the canal. on or directly next to its course....

the embankment fades out and remnants of dismantled lock chambers reveal themselves beyond...

you obviously have a blockage against this ...but

the path/hedge to the gate of the crematorium would have been the main and only route to nunhead...so...not insignificant at all

lets agree to difer , mate...cos this is a bit wearing....

theres plenty to look into re the embankment....
and lets face it.....I dont think you are in a position to refute it....dismissing it out of hand as you seem to be

you seem confused as to the nature of locks and the landscape....and refuse to acknowledge the obvious amounts of infill at the low point

look again;

look at the landscape...
and please lets not get tied up in disa greement...we've done so well so far..

I genuinely think you should have another look at those maps...

and I'm afraid you cant make statements like 'it definitely isnt a towpath'....really...it could easily, and does mark our route...plain as day!!

[Falkor]

I'm sorry Falkor...
but you are missing things that are right under your nose,mate

OK mate, well I hope you can point them out, so that I can understand the problem in more context and know exactly what we are disagreeing about.

the part i pointed out, below the end of the factory and behind, is on the site of the crenmatorium...NOT in the railway cutting...
please check the landscape
dont forget the spoil from the reservoirs

Which part is that?

What about the reservoir spoil?

dont ignore the ONLY path to brockley way...insignificant as it may seeem, because it joined up, at some point with dead lane and the embankment...

Yep, roger that.

the embankment is not marked on canal maps...because it IS the canal....
or a part of it....

Not true. The embankment (or plot representing the embankment) is marked on one of the Collage estate maps between Dalrymple Road and Dead Lane. However, the map coverage ends at the point when the canal begins to head westerly, so we don't know how the embankments changed. I've taken an educated guess that the bank shown in the photo is the continuation of the canal's western bank, but also--based on the OS map--a stretch where the canal and bank's alignment start merging together before the bank is flattened around the point where a small stretch of the canal remained in water (bank ends here). The embankment is considerably separate from the canal--the outer bank is represented in one colour and the inner bank another (green and yellow) on the estate map--though everything merges near the fireworks huts.

the present area around brockley mews is filled to a depth of 40 iodd feet...

Sounds like speculation to me...

plus the high embankment that still persists beyond the bridge...thsi is something you refuse to take into consideration...

The high embankment that still persists north and east of Brockley Way forms part of my main argument about the canal banks matching the railway banks. I don't know how much you agree/disagree with me here?

the land sloped away from the top lack, which it DOESN't do today

Do you have any data to support this claim that the gradient has considerably changed since the time of the canal? It's sounds like another interesting hyphothesis put forward by yourself, and would be great if we could prove it.

the embankment follows a large section of the canal. on or directly next to its course....

That is such a vague interpretation. The OS map, your Google Maps overlay of the canal, together with the estate map can tell us so much more about the embankment than what you have just stated. If you combine the sources and analyse the corroborated evidence then Bob's your uncle!

the embankment fades out and remnants of dismantled lock chambers reveal themselves beyond...

We agree on something then! I referred to this as "flattening out".

you obviously have a blockage against this ...but

the path/hedge to the gate of the crematorium would have been the main and only route to nunhead...so...not insignificant at all

You mean Brockley Way? That certainly wasn't insignificant, but the short pathway parallel with the canal seemingly was... I've not analysed the hedge yet.

lets agree to difer , mate...cos this is a bit wearing....

theres plenty to look into re the embankment....
and lets face it.....I dont think you are in a position to refute it....dismissing it out of hand as you seem to be

To be honest, you're not really looking at much of my evidence or answering many of my questions, but I've addressed everything you've said over the last few pages. I see that as a bit of a cop out. I've not dismissed anything, but have taken everything into account. How many times have I changed my opinion? I didn't spot the pathway before, as you were being too vague. Now I see it. I am only interested in the truth--not about being right all the time. What have I dismissed about the embankment? I'm just sharing my interpretation based on the overlay work. Finally, before we agree to disagree, can you please summarise exactly what we are meant to be disagreeing on?

you seem confused as to the nature of locks and the landscape....and refuse to acknowledge the obvious amounts of infill at the low point

My understanding of the locks and landscape is mainly based on all the work we've done with maps. I can't comment on infill, since we have no data for that.

look again;
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2336/223 ... 3abe_b.jpg

look at the landscape...
and please lets not get tied up in disa greement...we've done so well so far..

What feature or features about the landscape am I meant to be examining? I see the presence of bank (pointed out with captions), which nobody disagrees with. Man, I am confused...

and I'm afraid you cant make statements like 'it definitely isnt a towpath'....really...it could easily, and does mark our route...plain as day!!

I can quite easily make that statement based on the distance of the path from the canal. It's easy to prove that it's not a towpath. Just examine route 1 on my previous overlay and you see it's too far from the canal. I've already mentioned the problem of distance in my last post, but again, you failed to acknowledge it. It's a shame other things can't be proved as easy as this... so you want to agree to disagree about this point? You think there's a high chance of it being the towpath, and I think there's absolutely zero chance of it being the towpath. I've presented all the evidence and explained everything to the best of my ability, so once you've acknowledged what I perceive to be distance, I'm more than happy to agree to disagree about this. However, you're more than welcome to provide any additional evidence or interpretations of the maps before we reach this conclusion.

Where do we stand with the embankment now?

[will greenwood]

its not speculation...
check the contour maps and the 1833 map over lays etc...

i cant say any mare until i see it myself..find out more about the crematorium and get some photographic evidence of that slope ....

i'll mark everything on the map when i feel better...

think carefully about why there were locks in the first place..check the topography...match the image with the obvious map anomalies..

the locks lowered the level of the canal 6 feet every for every lock...with each pound on a levelled area up to the next lock...and down another 6 feet....

there was a double lock at the top, and by the time you passed through it...you would be 12 feet lower than the top pound that flows on through forest wood.

so...the locks are used to lower the canal down the hill!

the image i posted is to show the shape of the land...sloping down to brockley way..with a slight hill at the point of the circle in the crematorium...
the banks marked on that image are from when we discussed the phony wharf at the top...the triangular feature in front of top lock....which...as you can see, is no longer visible, due to being levelled up to the level of the road..

this is really major earthworks....

I apologis eif i am being beligerent...but we diverged when you overlayed that estate map...and i dont personally see it as strongly proven as you sdo...
also...if you agree about the lock chamber ....then your course is way toofar to the east....

i'm tired and in pain mate...so i'll let it lie with you for a bit...

all our prevoius efforts led to a course hat would follow the bank for 300 yards or so at least...and after the factory boundary, where it becomes less imposing..the course of the locks is visibkle in the photo, and on the maps, including the lock....

i just think you have your perspective view a bit wrong.....perhaps i am visualising it better, thats all...and , sure...thers a small amount of speculation....but the embankment ioid physical, real and a new clue to the puzzle....

I see your overlays as ....the same as you see mine....perjhaps that wishful thinking or something.....

but I really do believe I have a point here, and would rather not discuss it, and get on with the quest, than argue about whether we agree or not.....


in the same way you espouse that it cant be the towpath or the infilled canal....I'm afraid I say it certainly can...and merits the investigation...especially if we want to find a lock to dig./...

now...lets agree to differ...i'll mark a few things on the maps to further emphasise my case....and wait till we get the aerial photos....cos that'll show you, mate...I'm sure of it..


I dont want to argue about this anymore, until we can chat in person and debate it properly...


basically...I'm sure your distances are wrong....

sorry

[Falkor]

check the contour maps and the 1833 map over lays etc...

i cant say any mare until i see it myself..find out more about the crematorium and get some photographic evidence of that slope ....

That 1833 map is fairly innaccurate. I would be very careful before basing any claims around it. If you don't believe me then try and superimpose it onto an OS map or aerial photo. Nothing lines up!

think carefully about why there were locks in the first place..check the topography...match the image with the obvious map anomalies..

the locks lowered the level of the canal 6 feet every for every lock...with each pound on a levelled area up to the next lock...and down another 6 feet....

there was a double lock at the top, and by the time you passed through it...you would be 12 feet lower than the top pound that flows on through forest wood.

so...the locks are used to lower the canal down the hill!

I know that, mate... but how do we find out how the steep the landscape was before and now?

the image i posted is to show the shape of the land...sloping down to brockley way..with a slight hill at the point of the circle in the crematorium...
the banks marked on that image are from when we discussed the phony wharf at the top...the triangular feature in front of top lock....which...as you can see, is no longer visible, due to being levelled up to the level of the road..

I agree there was a slope, but that doesn't mean there still isn't one today. I need to check the circular area of the crematorium. Your hypothesis about the triangular feature no longer being visible due to levelling of the road sounds like speculation. You're assuming a lot of things here, including the lock and cottage being on 2 different levels + the 2 semi-detached houses and road being on the same level today. It might be true; it might not be. Minor earth moving isn't a problem, but if you can prove the landscape has completely changed then that would be something... Don't think I'm disagreeing because I couldn't say either way.

I apologis eif i am being beligerent...but we diverged when you overlayed that estate map...and i dont personally see it as strongly proven as you sdo...

Matching all those features up on the overlay, including field boundaries, isn't proof of accuracy?

also...if you agree about the lock chamber ....then your course is way toofar to the east....

How's that? We've both got the alignment of the canal following the fireworks huts.

i'm tired and in pain mate...so i'll let it lie with you for a bit...

Sorry to hear that, mate! Please try and address some more of my points when you are feeling stronger--both mentally and physically.

all our prevoius efforts led to a course hat would follow the bank for 300 yards or so at least...and after the factory boundary, where it becomes less imposing..the course of the locks is visibkle in the photo, and on the maps, including the lock....

Sorry, you've written this too quickly and unclear, so I'm not quite sure what you mean. Please re-phrase when you feel better.

i just think you have your perspective view a bit wrong.....perhaps i am visualising it better, thats all...and , sure...thers a small amount of speculation....but the embankment ioid physical, real and a new clue to the puzzle....

The picture I have built up in my mind has been extracted entirely from the maps and photo. I haven't let my imagination get in the way of things at all. You need to communicate to me exactly how your interpretation of the bank differs to mine (I've already given several re-iterated descriptions).

but I really do believe I have a point here, and would rather not discuss it, and get on with the quest, than argue about whether we agree or not.....

You could be pursueing some idea that turns out to be false. This debate allows us to share ideas and take us forward with the research. I'm going to go over this topic and see if I can figure out exactly where we differ in our opinions.

in the same way you espouse that it cant be the towpath or the infilled canal....I'm afraid I say it certainly can...and merits the investigation...especially if we want to find a lock to dig./...

You've made that statement without supporting it with any arguement(s). Also, you have not looked at my "no towpath theory based on distance" and come up with any argument against that. That's why we're not going forward right now. We're stuck on the bank. This is what's making it very difficult for me to figure out our difference of opinion regarding the bank.

now...lets agree to differ...i'll mark a few things on the maps to further emphasise my case....and wait till we get the aerial photos....cos that'll show you, mate...I'm sure of it..

I don't know what new information you're expecting the aerial photos to reveal that can help our understanding of this embankment problem.

I dont want to argue about this anymore, until we can chat in person and debate it properly...

Ok mate, no more argueing. I'm just going to see if I can come up with a list or description on what we are disagreeing about. If you think a chat in person will help us communicate our ideas better then I'm all for it!

[will greenwood]

seriously, mate..
I have made some very persuasive points...withe images to support them..
the bank does follow the course of the canal as far as the bounadary of the factory incorporating at least 2 locks on its course...

it IS close enough to the course of the canal to merit its explanation...and it is connected , post canal , with the path to nunhead at brockley way...and Beyond that, in the picture, you can see the earthworks, also marked on the map...which point to a lock chamber.....

I think you could be ignoring a major piec of evidence.....and yes , it may be a red herring...but by the time we've finished...we'll know exactly what s going on....

at least my theories about the embankment are plausible.....

i can think of no reason for it otherwise

It is not sloped today!

...and I think we should agree on this...but the ground signs are telling a different story...and the 2 need to match up.....

[Falkor]

CANAL

Starting point of the canal shown as remnant on OS map
Falkor: agree
Will: agree

The canal hit what is now the eastern bank of the railway line
Falkor: agree
Will: disagree

brockley mews was the site of a lock...and i still think it possible that the canal clipped the corner here
Falkor: disagree
Will: agree

The estate maps are accurate
Falkor: agree
Will: disagree

if you agree about the lock chamber ....then your course (Falkor's) is way toofar to the east....
Falkor: disagree
Will: agree


ROADS AND BRIDGES

The Dalrymple Road bridge was created 1833-1835
Falkor: agree
Will: ?

interesting that dead lane, although it is at the top of Courtrai rd, actaually led up from Kilgour or Holmesley rd
Falkor: agree
Will: agree

The photo shows the Dead Lane footbridge
Falkor: agree
Will: agree

the bend in the paths as they cros the canal seem to show the point of the bridges
Falkor: agree
Will: agree


EARTHWORKS

The sloping landscape has been levelled off
Falkor: don't know
Will: agree

Playing fields were levelled off after the fireworks factory demolition
Falkor: agree
Will: agree

Playing fields were levelled off after the railway cutting
Falkor: disagree
Will: ?

The area around the lockkeeper's cottage was levelled with railway spoil
Falkor: don't know
Will: agree

the present area around brockley mews is filled to a depth of 40 iodd feet...
Falkor: don't know
Will: agree


PATHWAYS

there are access paths at the points of the locks (from photo)
Falkor: agree
Will: agree

the towpath may have interchanged from side to side anyway along the locks, as it often does...
Falkor: disagree
Will: agree

There was a pathway at the western side of the canal from brockley way to just below dead lane
Falkor: agree
Will: agree

There's a high chance the pathway was used for towing
Falkor: disagree
Will: agree

I still think there is some hope that that embankment…represented part of the official towpath
Falkor: disagree
Will: agree

the west towpath...eventually bending away from the canal before dead lane...heading to the...path
Falkor: disagree
Will: agree


EMBANKMENTS

The bank in the photo is the bank of the canal
Falkor: agree
Will: agree

the area beyond the bank is higher than the nearer area (from photo)
Falkor: agree
Will: agree

'the bank and boundary fence.... marked the old line of the canal'
Falkor: disagree
Will: agree

the embankment follows a large section of the canal. on or directly next to its course....
Falkor: disagree
Will: agree

the canal definitely ran along the line of that embankment
Falkor: disagree
Will: agree

The course of the bank (in photo) means the canal ran more to the west
Falkor: disagree
Will: agree

the canal diverge from the top of the scarp and down, where the locks would be
Falkor: agree
Will: agree

The vertical axis of the bank and the vertical axis of the canal drift apart in the direction of Dead Lane.
Falkor: agree
Will: ?

Canal banks north of Dead Lane had 2 areas referred to as Inner+Outer, possibly indicating 2 different gradients.
Falkor: agree
Will: ?

also, those estate maps are showing the canal cutting, not just banks
Falkor: agree
Will: agree

The canal banks varied in width
Falkor: agree
Will: ?

Railway banks north of Dead Lane are the same banks originally beside the canal
Falkor: agree
Will: ?

The embankment starting west of the canal was continuous from Brockley Way to the fireworks factory.
Falkor: agree
Will: ?

the embankment fades out (flattens) and remnants of dismantled lock chambers reveal themselves beyond...
Falkor: agree
Will: agree

[Falkor]

The problem with our arguements on the canal route is that Will is basing it more on the embankment, whereas I'm still mainly basing it on maps.

When it comes to roads and bridge, Will and I seem to agree on virtually everything.

When it comes to earthworks, Will is having to speculate, whereas I'm unable to form an opinion.

When it comes to pathways, Will thinks there might have been a towpath to the west, whereas I think there is absolutely zero chance.

The problem with our arguements on embankments is more complicated. Will seems to think the canal followed the line of the embankment, but I see it as a bit more complicated than this, as implied from the following statements:
"the canal diverge from the top of the scarp and down, where the locks would be"
"The vertical axis of the bank and the vertical axis of the canal drift apart in the direction of Dead Lane."
If you agree with those statements then I don't see how the previous statement about the canal simply following the bank applies.

"Canal banks north of Dead Lane had 2 areas referred to as Inner+Outer, possibly indicating 2 different gradients."
Falkor: agree
Will: ?

"also, those estate maps are showing the canal cutting, not just banks"
Falkor: agree
Will: agree

What I describe as the inner bank + outer bank, Will has more accurately described as canal bank and canal cutting. The canal doesn't run along an embankment here, but is inside a cutting, which in turn is inside a bank.

There's now a number of question marks that need filling in from Will in order to understand this problem, and our differing interprations, in more detail.
Did the canal always have to be inside a bank+cutting?
Did the canal banks vary in width?
Are the railway banks the same as the canal banks?

Will and I already agreed that the bank flattens out near the tree surgeons area, and so the ultimate question following on from this relates to this statement:
"The embankment starting west of the canal was continuous from Brockley Way to the fireworks factory."

[will greenwood]

my current speculation is that the embnakment isthe actual canal course filled and raised....

it certainly isnt the towpath, but represents its coursr, one side or another..

yes ,we do agree on a lot...and i think it may be miscommunication as to the eastward section...but the maps certainly show the embankment leading off what is probably lock 24...or the pound before it...and the hedgrow continuing right accross to the gate at brockley way...not the bridge..but the west entrance....

i just dont agree with the angle and steep locks that would require...

and with the reservoir only 1/4 mile away..its easy to see how thaey could have filled such a large area....

the 'phony wharf' area at top lock IS flat and level..and no sign of the banks.....so...its either higher all round...or they were levelled too, leaving the whole area BELOW top lock...

once again...I'm sorry to not to answer each specific question.....

perhaps another thread ...'what is this embankment for?'

look, I am fascinated by the embankment..the landscape doesnt reveal it at all today...but its proximity to the canal; makes for interesting study....

the contour maps and overlays are quite clear as to the shape of the landscape before, and after the cuttings...and the locks would have taken the easiest route.....

anyway....

unless we can dig up the whole lot, I dont think we'll ever know for sure, Eh?

those WW1 aerials would tell us so much!

The bank in the photo is the bank of the canal
Falkor: agree
Will: agree

eh?

I thought thats what the argument was all about!

[kennyb2]

Archeaology used to be such a peaceful pastime.......an old bloke in tweeds and pipe pottering in a ditch with a trowel and some bits of old pot......

[will greenwood]

some info I turned up in the quest...

'1901

The newly formed Metropolitan Borough of Camberwell acquired this in 1901. The central portion was bought from Alfred Stevens, Farmer and landowner of Peckham Rye in June 1901. These twenty-four acres cost £11,305. The western portion comprises 32 acres and adjoins One Tree Hill Park. This was bought from the same landowner for £19,469. In November 1901 another 12 acres adjoining the Brockley footpath were bought from the Governors of Christ's Hospital for £6,325. In total 68 acres of land was purchased for future burials. The greater part of the site was let on a ten year lease from 1909 to Honor Oak Golf Club. Also, a small plot of land was let on a quarterly tenancy to the firework maker J.Wells, for use as a pyrotechnics factory. '

1926

Part of the land was set out as a cemetery in 1926. This was consecrated by the Right Reverend William Woodcock Hough DD, MA, Bishop of Woolwich, and the first burial took place on the 23rd May 1927. A smaller site was set aside for use of Free Churches, and the remaining land, not required for the time being, was left as open space. The twin chapels in this part of the cemetery were designed by Aston Webb.

The demand for cremations was rising, and in 1939 saw the opening of Honor Oak Crematorium by the Borough of Camberwell. This was located next to the New Cemetery and consisted of 10 acres of the cemetery land. By 1984 over 91,000 cremations had taken place at Honor Oak.

At the outbreak of the second world war approximately eight acres of unused cemetery land was set aside for allotments and are still used to day.

1956

In 1956 six and a half acres of unused cemetery land was used to construct a garden nursery site for the Parks Department, these nurseries were in constant use until 1995. The nursery remained unused for a further three years and the buildings were eventually demolished in 1998.

n old bloke in tweeds and pipe pottering in a ditch with a trowel and some bits of old pot

...sounds good to me!

[Falkor]

Some good chronology you dug up there, Will! I don't think any of my books even contain that much info on Honor Oak.

Just got back from LLS. No aerials of Honor Oak before 1965. I got the 1965 one, but it's from a distance. The librarian said they have an actual photo of the Brockley lock keeper's cottage, but couldn't find it. We did find another illustration of it though... and picture of another cottage in South Norwood.

I got some better copies of the "official" maps now!

I've ordered a scan of the Honor Oak photo + Wells Park Road photo showing the sign of the Green Dragon (if the librarian is able to get it).

I also got a photo of the Brockley Way footbridge predecessor.

[Falkor]