Dartmouth Road Improvements: Consultation

[_HB]

http://www.foresthillsociety.com/2015/0 ... ation.html

Another public realm "improvement" scheme is up for consultation. Another one with zero space for cycling (of course). But encouraged that Lewisham seems committed to giving pedestrians priority at side roads.

Will this remain a traffic choked hell hole like Sydenham High St? Probably. But your views really do count on this stuff so please follow the link and contribute.

[leenewham]

I'd pedestrianise it.

It look alike another off the shelf Lewisham paving scheme. Dull. Doesn't solve anything. Wont improve trade. Wont make a big difference aside from the space outside the Syvan Post.

[_HB]

Yeah I agree. Or make it a through road for buses only? Would probably cut the traffic in half. No need for so many local through roads for private vehicles so close to the S Circular.

[Robin Orton]

I'd pedestrianise it.

Yeah I agree. Or make it a through road for buses only?

All the way from Kirkdale to London Road? If not, from where to where?

[_HB]

You could make it no through road except buses from Kirkdale to London Rd yes. You would need more physical intervention from London Rd up to the pool so that it felt more like a street rather than a road. Then more or less as it is from the pool up to Kirkdale. The reduction in through traffic would mean very little would need to be done at that point. It would be quiet and pleasant.

[Robin Orton]

So where would the displaced traffic go? Sydenham Rise? Silverdale/Perry Vale? Mayow Road/Perry Vale?

[leenewham]

I don't know if you have noticed on yours, but after washing my car, within a day it's filthy.

We need to encourage better transportation. We need to make places nicer to encourage walking. We need to make streets safer to encourage cycling. We need to make public transport cheaper and more reliable to encourage people to leave their cars at home.

People will always have cars. Banning them, making them more expensive etc is'n the way to change behaviour in the long term. Making the alternatives more convenient, cheaper and better is the way forward. Behaviour is very difficult to change with penalty or stick. Carrots are much better at changing behaviour.

We shouldn't be asking 'where the traffic will go'. It will always find a way. We should be asking 'how can we make our streets safer, nicer, healthier and more prosperous?'.

The only reason I have a car is because I like to get out of London at the weekend or go to different places as a family with a toddler. Our car is pretty eco friendly and we generally travel with 3 in it with assorted bikes and picnics in the boot. Very often train's don't go to where we want to go to or it takes far longer and is far more expensive and less convenient to use. If it was the other way around, we wouldn't have a car.

If streets were safer and nicer to cycle on, I'd cycle. I sold mine years ago as I hated cycling in London so much. It felt unsafe and for long commutes, just felt stupid that you shared space with huge lorries.

[Robin Orton]

We shouldn't be asking 'where the traffic will go'. It will always find a way.

Quite. OK so long as it's not along your street.

[_HB]

There is a concept that is well established in the Netherlands which is "traffic evaporation" (no laughing in the back please). This is essentially the opposite of "induced demand", which is what we have now i.e make private motor car use easy, build more roads, don't invest in alternatives = major problems with traffic, congestion, pollution and sedentary lifestyles.

If you take the example of Dartmouth Rd. Don't ask "Where will the traffic go?", ask "Why does the traffic need to be there?". Dartmouth Rd is well served by buses, there is a train station a short walk away, the local residents don't need to drive there and loading can be managed outside of peak times. Provided that residents can access their properties using properly managed filtering, what's the problem? The traffic will evaporate.

But this kind of change can only come from a proper commitment to manage down the use of motor vehicles across an entire Borough or, preferably, an entire City. As it happens, the City (as represented by TfL) is starting to take this stuff seriously ( https://twitter.com/Sparkes/status/609700056669814784). Lewisham is still in the middle of the industrial revolution.

[Rachael]

_HB: You've ignored one common use of Dartmouth Road. It is a through-route to access the South Circular. Robin's question (I think) relates to which alternative route that traffic will take.

Personally, I've stopped using it for the purpose in recent months as the illegal pavement parking causes frequent Bus-maggedon situations with one not being able to pass another. I suspect much of the evaporation of the through traffic has already happened, in a gradual way that we tend not to notice.

[_HB]

It is a through-route to access the South Circular.

From where? Is that road really suitable as a distributor to the South Circular? It's very narrow and clearly not able to handle the volume of through traffic that currently want to use it.

Without looking at a map, surely we could force through traffic somewhere else, like up Westwood Hill > Tulse Hill and join S.Circular there? Yes that means longer journeys for private cars. But I make no apologies for that.

I suspect much of the evaporation of the through traffic has already happened, in a gradual way that we tend not to notice.

You're probably right. This happens all over the place. The Kingsway has been shut completely for over a month now. For the first week or so the surrounding traffic was horrendous. Now it's back to normal. So why not claim some of that space for walking and cycling once the repairs are finished? The current road layout is clearly not necessary.

[Robin Orton]

Without looking at a map, surely we could force through traffic somewhere else, like up Westwood Hill > Tulse Hill and join S.Circular there? Yes that means longer journeys for private cars. But I make no apologies for that.

Apology accepted; we live up the hill behind Forest Hill library. But how would we get to Lee to pick up our grandsons from school? Via Tulse Hill?

Ah, I've just thought. We could go down Kirkdale and Sydenham Road to Bell Green, then along Southend Lane and through Downham. I'm sure that would be a lot quicker anyway.

[Eagle]

I actually find mygoodself in agreement with HB on this. Tragic for him I guess.

A good proportion of private vehicles simply do not need to be used, or even owned. Make it Buses only , access to vans for businesses before 9am and after 6 pm.

[_HB]

Robin - Just looked at a map....

If you place the no through road filter just after Thorpewood Avenue then you can get to Lee's? Can I count on your vote now?

[Rachael]

_HB - Yes, it is a common through-route.

I live half-way down Mayow Road. If I am coming home via Crystal Palace (as I often do), I will emerge somewhere on Kirkdale, either at the top at the end of Sydenham Hill, or from Wells Park Road. I use this route to avoid peak-time tailbacks on Westwood Hill.

I then have three choices: down Kirkdale to Sydenham Road; via FH joining the South Circular at the Horniman via Sydenham Rise; via FH using Dartmouth Road.

At peak times when traffic is queuing at Cobbs Corner, Sydenham Road is the worst option. Second worst is the Horniman route.Taking Dartmouth Road and working my way back to Mayow Road via Perry Vale is much the quickest IF there is no illegal parking and the buses can move freely. It is only narrow at the end nearest the station, and the carriageway is wide enough for two buses or other large vehicles to pass each other easily. The problem is people (I suspect local traders) illegally parking half-off the pavement at the narrowest point. Volume of traffic is not actually the problem.

Having said all that, I'm not again my NOT being able to use this route, if Dartmouth Road could be made more pleasant for everyone. However, Dartmouth Road is a long one with plenty of residential buildings on it or accessed from it. At what point would you make private vehicles turn off and where would you send them?

[_HB]

If you're coming at Crystal Palace from that angle I would suggest A23 to Streatham and then S.Circular down to Forest Hill. After all, what's the point of having orbital roads if we don't use them to take pressure off residential streets?

Can I ask why you make that journey by car? Are there no alternatives you could use like train or bus?

[_HB]

The problem is people (I suspect local traders) illegally parking half-off the pavement at the narrowest point. Volume of traffic is not actually the problem.

Fair comment. I defer to your greater experience on that. I would still suggest that vast improvements are needed regardless of the cause.

At what point would you make private vehicles turn off and where would you send them?

As I said above, the filter could be placed somewhere around Thorpewood Avenue. But there would be no turn from the S Circular onto Dartmouth except for access/buses and cycles.

[Rachael]

If you're coming at Crystal Palace from that angle I would suggest A23 to Streatham and then S.Circular down to Forest Hill. After all, what's the point of having orbital roads if we don't use them to take pressure off residential streets?

Can I ask why you make that journey by car? Are there no alternatives you could use like train or bus?

I'll take that first comment as a joke.

And no, you can't ask. Well, you can, but I can choose not to get into that discussion.

[_HB]

I'll take that first comment as a joke.

No, not a joke.

And no, you can't ask. Well, you can, but I can choose not to get into that discussion.

OK. I'm not asking to pry or be confrontational. A huge amount of the traffic problems we face in London are people taking private car journeys when they don't need to. 40% of private motor vehicle trips in London are less than 2 miles, 60% are less than five miles. Finding alternatives is a big part of the solution.

[Robin Orton]

Robin - Just looked at a map....

If you place the no through road filter just after Thorpewood Avenue then you can get to Lee's? Can I count on your vote now?

I would like to be able to get from Thorpewood Avenue to the South Circular eastbound in order to get to Lee (not Lee's, though I'm sure I should get just as warm a welcome there.) Before I put your election poster up in my window, perhaps you could reassure me that I could and, if so, where.