KIRKDALE HIGH STREET CONSULTATION

[leenewham]

I saw this in the Sydenha Society Newsletter:

https://lewisham-consult.objective.co.u ... provements

The main proposals are:
• Narrow the available carriageway width to 6.2m through the High Street section and widen footways.

• Identify the High Street as a distinct part of Kirkdale through the use of high quality materials and a shared surface approach.

• Introduce a raised table for the entire high street from Jews Walk to the mini-roundabout. This improves safety by reducing vehicle speeds and provides a better facility for pedestrians to cross, especially at courtesy crossings. Where vehicles cross over the footways, pedestrians have priority.

• From Jews Walk to Peak Hill narrow the available carriageway width to 8m including a central median, which allows the widening of footways and provision of parking on the eastern side. The medians help keep vehicles in their respective lanes but can be overrun to pass stationary buses or other obstacles if necessary.

• Increase the number of available parking spaces outside the shops. All parking is now in designated bays on the footway.

• Plant street trees interspersed with parking bays to help green the street and to visually break the line of parked vehicles.

All of the above seems sensible to me, but traders should think about how this affects then and the possible issues it causes.

With the street trees, could provision be made at Christmas to have power points to light them?

I'd strongly recommend that ALL the shops put some signage lower down in their windows so passers by can see what the shops are. All shops should do this anyway, people don't look up on high streets, but with street trees, they do cover up signs. They make the area nicer, but shops should think around this and see them as an asset.

The raised table makes a lot of sense and helps identity an area.

I hope the local traders keep an close eye on the detailing of the scheme and any planting or seating so it doesn't end up like what we have in Sydenham Road. There are some really lovely ideas for street seating that we have seen over the years on our high street journey, but often what is designed doesn't happen (much of what was proposed in Lower Sydenham wasn't installed as designed).

[_HB]

Speaking as someone who mostly uses this street as a cyclist, these changes are mostly cosmetic and will do very little to improve the local environment. Unless the Council is prepared to consider restricting Kirkdale to through traffic (which of course isn't), this is always going to be a fairly unpleasant motor dominated street.

The changes in priority on side streets (if implemented correctly) are welcome but, as we've seen with similar schemes in Clapham, motorists tend not to recognise the change in priority making the sideroads potentially more dangerous, not less.

The carriageway narrowing and footway widening will make riding through here a far more stressful experience than at present (already pretty stressful). And the increased parking will do nothing to tackle Lewisham's chronic health problems caused by poor air quality and sedentary lifestyles. This is the borough with the lowest rate of care ownership in Britain.

In short, despite weasel words from Lewisham on promoting active travel this is another big fat FAIL. See Also: Ladywell High St, Catford Gyratory, Bell Green, Brockley Rise etc etc and so on

2/10 must do better.

[stuart]

I would endorse HB's comments. It is on a hill and the only way to ride safely (as recommended by HMG) will be to take primary position that is to ride in the middle of the lane to prevent a dangerous overtake. That is motorists would be forced to follow a slow and panting cyclist up the hill for quite a distance. A recipe for a bit of road rage.

Did I miss any reference to Dartmouth Road? The existing parking on the left/north side is a real danger and a hindrence - especially for buses. You swing right round the mini-roundabout to encounter oncoming traffic with very poor visibility lines and buses have to hold back. That area really needs no parking. I realise that would be unwelcome to the fast food outlets but safety and convenience for the majority should take precedence over the few.

Kirkdale is a micro-centre compared to Sydenham Road. Its main trade must come from people living within a few hundred yards so driving to the shop is not that important. Being able to walk safely and pleasantly may encourage locals to shop more locally and boost trade. Come on - if I can walk up to George's barbers in under 10 minutes (or cycle there in 2/3 minutes) almost anyone can. And have a more pleasant experience when you get there.

Stuart

[SteveG85]

This looks like good news to me, although I agree on the need to ensure that positive plans turn into action. Thanks for sharing Lee

[Eagle]

After the sad demise of That's Amore , The Windmill and The Woodman the area in dire straits .


Something needs to be done soon.


Good Luck.

[SteveG85]

I'm delighted that investment is proposed for this area and look forward to its improvement, but I take issue with it being described as in 'dire straits'. 161 and Fig & Pistachio have both recently opened and are great and Hibagon Sushi is due to open on 5 June in That's Amore's place. Together with places like Alahambra and the French Bakery there are already some great local businesses.

In my view the biggest problem for the area is that the site of the Windmill pub has stood empty for 18 months following the completely counter productive planning decision. Hopefully the proposed investment will mean that another company tries its luck at the Windmill site soon

[parker]

This is the best news since the arrival of the Overground. When is the work likely to start? Do you know Lee? I'm imagining it to look something like the area at the bottom of Gypsy Hill near The Paxton (which is really nice). The only issue in the meantime is the horrendous traffic jam from roadworks that's only going to make that trip through Kirkdale to Cobbs Corner even longer than it is already.

[Pat Trembath]

This is at consultation stage.

Follow the link in Lee's posting to see the Consultation document https://lewisham-consult.objective.co.u ... provements which will tell you this is at a Feasibility Design stage. Lewisham are (hopefully) working up a design, which is bound to change as they discover what services run where under the existing pavements and as a result of comments made by local residents and traders.

Comments on this consultation are invited by 21 June and should be emailed to transport@lewisham.gov.uk

A pre-consultation meeting was held back in February and was reported in the latest edition of Sydenham Society News: "A pre-feasibility study is currently taking place to look at how Dartmouth Road and Kirkdale (from Willow Way to Peak Hill) could be made safer and the environment improved. In February Lewisham’s Transport Development Officer, together with traffic engineers and consultant landscape architects met with residents and local councillors interested in the area around Kirkdale to discuss the problems of managing this stretch of highway.

With four bus routes, a doctors’ surgery, several primary schools, a secondary school and a day nursery as well as shops, this road is particularly busy at all times of the day. The accident rate of 25 Personal Injury Accidents in the past five years (one of which was serious), - compared to six in the same period of time on the Dartmouth Road to South Circular area.

Subjects discussed included: should the road should be made narrower, with wider pavements to allow for inset parking? What is the best place for pedestrians crossing the road and are the zebra crossings in the right place? Where should the bus stops be sited? Apart from encouraging traffic to use the area as a through route, what does the roundabout do to improve the area, is it in the right place and is there an alternative? Can Kirkdale be re-created with a sense of place?

It was emphasised that the situation in Kirkdale was one of the most interesting under pre-feasibility consideration, but it is still only one of eight areas in Lewisham in need of improvement; only three of these will be the subject of a Local Implementation Plan bid to Transport for London by Lewisham for funding in the next three years. Any bid for such funding will need to be robust and the options will need to be within reasonable costs."

It looks as though Kirkdale has passed the test and has moved into the next stage. This will not happen immediately as is stated above. However Lewisham has been successful in getting LIP funding to improve part of Dartmouth Road from the Pools to London Road and improvements (including the dreaded roadworks, which inevitably go with such improvements) will begin in 2016.

[JMLF]

Indeed, I feel since moving to the area about 15 months ago many developments have occurred with the only large negative (and is is a fairly large front) being nothing of yet happening with the windmill but it has recently been put "under offer" (fingers crossed). Additionally the sushi and grill is due to open in the next few weeks and their is apparently "exciting plans" (I don't know what, just something on another post) for the empty shop next to the chemist.

I won't list all the changes/developments since I've moved in but the Kirkdale high street update thread kind of lists all!: https://sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12405

[_HB]

Pat - You seem to suggest that one of the aims of this scheme is to "encourage traffic to use the area as a through route".

Can you confirm this?

Shum mishtake, shurely?

[The Clown]

Interesting comment indeed!

[Rachael]

Apart from encouraging traffic to use the area as a through route, what does the roundabout do to improve the area, is it in the right place and is there an alternative?

Read that sentence in isolation. It asks whether the roundabout encourages the use of the road as a through route. It's slightly confusing as it implies that this is included in the things that the roundabout might do to 'improve' the area, but I don't think that's what it means. Generally it is asking whether the roundabout is a good thing or not.

[Pat Trembath]

Thanks, Rachel - your reading of my posting was correct.

To reiterate. The February meeting was a pre-feasibility meeting to which some local residents and traders were invited to discuss and identify the current problems with using Kirkdale High Street. The job of the transport officers and street landscape architects was to take away the information gleaned and work up a design on which they would consult further.

This is where we are now. This is a second stage consultation and a much wider audience of local users of the area, be they on foot, car-borne or on bikes, have been invited to make comment. Further design work will be carried out and a further worked up design, if Kirkdale remains in the frame, will be brought forward for further consultation in due course.

Consultation is open till 21 June. if you have something to say about the current design work or have other suggestions to make email these to transport@lewisham.gov.uk before the closing date.

[_HB]

I understand what the word consultation means, thanks. And from substantial experience with road planning around London I also know that very little changes from consultation to implementation. This is a plan that does nothing to discourage through traffic, does nothing to promote active travel and will in practice do very little to improve the public realm beyond the cosmetic. We had these same arguments with the Sydenham High St "improvements" and nothing changed. Sydenham High St is still South Circular lite, a traffic choked mess. What a shame there isn't the political will to do it properly.

[simono]

I would agree with HB. This scheme is an absolute disaster for cyclists. This in a major route for people commuting to London and the narrowing of the road whilst providing inset parking bays is a sure fire way of increasing the number of people knocked off their bikes. Going up the hill will more hazardous as people try to squeeze past cyclists when there is not enough room and try to force their way up the hill, particularly when passing stopped buses as cyclists come down.
The design at the top of the scheme with a priority free junction also seems to be guaranteed to end up with more cyclists being hurt as well as the ongoing problem of cars cutting the corner at the round about going up the hill to get as close as possible to the kerb line and squeezing bikes against it.
There is at the very least the need to a segregated cycle lane on the way up the hill, including 20m beyond the round about and thoughts of how to protect cyclists on the way down.
Encouraging cycling is supposed to be a key objective of the the GLA's and Lewisham's transport strategy. This proposal is clearly contrary to that objective.
I have made this point as part of the consultation exercise but would urge others to think about this serious issue.

[_HB]

Well said - Plenty of space for segregation here. Win, win.

[The Clown]

Cyclists do need to be properly considered here