Windmill Victory

Eagle · Post by **Eagle** » 28 Feb 2015 14:08

I note from the esteemed publication ' What's Brewing 'that Lewisham's decision to declare The Windmill as an Asset of Community Value , is upheld.

The landlord have been put in their place.

I seem to recall we have Mary to thank for this and if she still looks at this Forum I congratulate her , as I am sure all others would like to do.

It may not be a pub but at least it is saved for the local community.

I seem to recall when visiting in the past that when originally opened by Wetherspoon it had very good disabled access , which indeed would be welcome in a community asset.

Well done Judge Warren and Mary.

Nigel · Post by **Nigel** » 28 Feb 2015 16:28

Eagle
I agree - well done Mary for her determination and for being right all along .It may not be a pub but neither is it a dreary supermarket or some more of the shanty housing that Kirkdale seems to be cursed with.
There is at least the hope of something better .
A very good afternoon
Nigel

harrym · Post by **harrym** » 28 Feb 2015 22:38

I know this will get you all ever so excited, but I think it was one of the most misguided campaigns of all time. Along with The Greyhound. Now... pounce!

SteveG85 · Post by **SteveG85** » 1 Mar 2015 11:17

The building that housed the Windmill has been boarded up for about 14 months now and is becoming more and more of an eyesore. All that seems to have been 'won' is that a new shop, which as a local resident I would have welcomed, has been stopped from opening and other businesses have been given the impression that they could face hostility if they try to open on Kirkdale. Obviously this isn't true, but it would be an easy conclusion for someone to draw from the campaign against Sainsburys.

I would be absolutely delighted to see a pub re-open on the site and am far from fanatical about another supermarket, but given that there are two pubs within 100m of the site (Bricklayers Arms, Foxes) as well as the fantastic 161 wine bar I don't feel as though the area is particularly short of options for a pint.

I suspect this is probably a view shared by would be purchasers/renters of the site who have considered and dismissed the idea since the site was first put on the market around two years ago. I expect the site will probably stand derelict until some humble pie is eaten and the restrictions on its use are removed.

parker · Post by **parker** » 2 Mar 2015 18:09

Shame Sainsbury's didn't happen, probably would've been better than the crappy Tesco next door.

Andwar · Post by **Andwar** » 3 Mar 2015 14:22

When I read the latest 'What's Brewing' and saw that 'The Windmill' has been listed as an ACV (Asset of Community Value) my first question was 'Why?'. It wasn't a good pub to start with considering that Foxes and the Bricklayers Arms are close by. I went in there once and walked straight out again never to come back. It lacked atmosphere, the beer was terrible unless you like the fizzy pop variety.

The South-Eastern branch of CAMRA campaigned hard to get this place listed so why didn't they get involved with what was the oldest pub in Sydenham, The Greyhound. I am not the best fan of CAMRA and this year I will not renew my membership owning to some of their business practices with which I do not agree with.

So it will only be another empty premise for years to come due to meddling from an organisation that have their priorities in the wrong place. Why can't we have a Sainsburys, Waitrose or M&S or perhaps turn it into a small indoor farmers market. Better that than an empty shop with wooden boards.

Eagle · Post by **Eagle** » 3 Mar 2015 15:00

Andwar

I agree Camera not what it was. Have been a member since formed in 70's. They did a lot of good early on but much of the battle has been won.

Re Windmill , I am inclined to agree since Wetherspoon sold the Pub about 10 years or so ago it has not been that great.
That does not mean it could not be if properly run.

We have lost The Duke of Edinborough and The Woodman to the locality. Only left with The Bricklayers Arms and Fox and Hounds.
Bricklayers used to be the best Pub by far in 70's , but those days are sadly gone. Have not ventured in The Fox and Hounds since for some strange reason they dropped the Hounds.

There is room for another well run Pub or even a Community meeting place come coffee shop.

How many food shops does one want.

gillyjp · Post by **gillyjp** » 3 Mar 2015 16:23

harrym wrote:I know this will get you all ever so excited, but I think it was one of the most misguided campaigns of all time. Along with The Greyhound. Now... pounce!

Hear hear! Yes the 'do-gooders' of Sydenham can sit back and be very proud of their achievements (The Greyhound and the Windmill campaigns) instead of premises that are being used and being kept in reasonable and useful order, we now have (and in the case of the Greyhound 7 years and counting) two derelict buildings and eyesores for years to come. Not a very encouraging outlook and would surely make would be residents think twice about buying or renting in our town.

Still - well done all those campaigners......

biscuitman1978 · Post by **biscuitman1978** » 3 Mar 2015 16:52

gillyjp wrote:Hear hear! Yes the 'do-gooders' of Sydenham can sit back and be very proud of their achievements (The Greyhound and the Windmill campaigns) instead of premises that are being used and being kept in reasonable and useful order, we now have (and in the case of the Greyhound 7 years and counting) two derelict buildings and eyesores for years to come.

I have a great deal of sympathy with the concern that you and others raise about the future of the Windmill, but I can't accept your assertion that the current state of the Greyhound is the fault of 'do gooders'.

The reality is that the Greyhound was substantially demolished by Purelake, the developer of the site on which the Greyhound sits, without conservation area consent, a criminal act for which they were rightly prosecuted. Purelake has subsequently failed to rebuild the pub, despite promising to do so. In short, the fault lies squarely at Purelake's door, not at the door of the 'do gooders'.

sugahill cafe · Post by **sugahill cafe** » 3 Mar 2015 18:06

re the Greyhound: Often wondered how Lee's mural fitted in to this project, how was it allowed to be put up before new owners had been found & were Purelake happy to do so (or did they see it as a hindrance) and if the new owners are allowed to take it down again if they don't like it. Both sites a complete eyesore i agree... Chris

biscuitman1978 · Post by **biscuitman1978** » 3 Mar 2015 20:10

sugahill cafe wrote:re the Greyhound: Often wondered how Lee's mural fitted in to this project, how was it allowed to be put up before new owners had been found & were Purelake happy to do so (or did they see it as a hindrance) and if the new owners are allowed to take it down again if they don't like it. Both sites a complete eyesore i agree... Chris

The mural was installed by Purelake. They did so in the knowledge that, once they'd done so (along with installing the 'drinking corridor' tiles in the pub, which have been kept in storage following their removal from the old pub building), another firm would be obliged to take a sub-lease from them on the commercial units behind (that deal had already been done). Hey presto: some income for Purelake from the commercial units without needing to rebuild the pub.

Fortunately, Lewisham Council put a stop to Purelake installing the 'drinking corridor' tiles in a pub which is only half built, so at the very least the tiles have been protected.

But the installation of the mural on a half built pub is yet another example of Purelake's disregard for the people of Sydenham. It is also, in my view, an insult to leenewham and his colleagues who designed the mural, as well as to all those who contributed to it.

You can of course discuss the Greyhound further in its own thread at https://sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewtopic ... 5&start=60

John J Rambo · Post by **John J Rambo** » 21 May 2015 12:53

Bump.

I believe that this is now being occupied by squatters.

_HB · Post by **_HB** » 21 May 2015 14:10

Oh dear.

Can we change the title of this thread to "Windmill (Pyrrhic) Victory"?

JMLF · Post by **JMLF** » 22 May 2015 07:23

On the flip-side the estate agent sign now says "under offer" which sounds mildly promising! Fingers crossed something positive this way comes..

Nigel · Post by **Nigel** » 22 May 2015 22:11

JMLF
My sentiments too - stopping Sainsburys at least preserved the chance of something good happening .
A very good evening
Nigel

mosy · Post by **mosy** » 23 May 2015 09:19

Whenever I pass it, I think how light and airy it must be for a gallery, or gym, or theatre studio, a conference venue - whatever - except that none of my thoughts would result in a commercial profit-making venue without a very big stretch of imagination especially with little car parking availability. I'm like a cat on hot bricks now wondering who it's under offer to...

Eagle · Post by **Eagle** » 23 May 2015 10:00

Yes thanks to the good and tireless work of Mary we have have a potential community asset.

Hopefully a Pub or Coffee shop or another community asset can take over soon./

Tim Lund · Post by **Tim Lund** » 23 May 2015 11:40

The victory - Pyrrhic or otherwise - probably belongs more to SE London CAMRA than Mary.

Like others, I can imagine uses for this space which would excite me more than a Sainsbury's Local, but as things stand, the choice we have is between a tenant of the freeholder's choosing, or squatters. I have no doubt which most people would prefer.

I would have some sympathy for self styled campaigners for assets of community value if they could see community value in assets other than pubs. Pubs are just one of many possible uses for such space which can allow people to socialise, but campaigning for pubs as such sends the wrong message in linking the consumption of alcohol with sociability. To the extent that people want places to meet up and drink, normal commercial life will provide - not only have we the example of Sylvan Posts opening as a new pub in Forest Hill, but right next to the former Windmill, there is the new 161 wine bar.

If we want to help give market forces a steer in the right direction, we should be heading people away from alcohol

Horizon - 2014-2015: 12. Is Binge Drinking Really That Bad?

As indeed we are anyway, especially younger people

Why is alcohol consumption falling?

These campaigns to save pubs come from a sentimental, befuddled, out of touch older generation, which unfortunately is well represented in our political classes, both locally and nationally.

Eagle · Post by **Eagle** » 23 May 2015 11:55

Tim

I appreciate you have never been a great liker of Public Houses.

Surely what all the surveys about alcohol tell us that the problem now is mainly with of sales , not sales under supervision in pubs.

Rather than try to close even more pubs surely we should try to restrict hours that drink can be sold in shops and also tax more heavily of sales than sales in Pubs.

Very sad people boozing at home on their own,. Drinking should be a social activity , never drink on ones own. Very sad.

Tim Lund · Post by **Tim Lund** » 23 May 2015 11:59

Eagle wrote:Tim

I appreciate you have never been a great liker of Public Houses.

Surely what all the surveys about alcohol tell us that the problem now is mainly with of sales , not sales under supervision in pubs.

Rather than try to close even more pubs surely we should try to restrict hours that drink can be sold in shops and also tax more heavily of sales than sales in Pubs.

Very sad people boozing at home on their own,. Drinking should be a social activity , never drink on ones own. Very sad.

These are overall figures, so it's not as if the decline in pubs is offset by an increase in solitary drinking.

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