Liberty GB Candidate

[Jackbuckby]

Oh, well, if we are taking the Telegraph as a respected news source, you might want to read this:

https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdo ... -telegraph

(You see I can make some effort myself.)

The source is within the article. The source is not the Telegraph.

You can't dismiss a source because you don't like a newspaper that reported on it.

That's a fair point. However, the way the source is reported has to be taken into account. Anything can be spun, and the more proficient the spinner, the less you notice the web.

That MORI poll certainly looks convincing, but the way the statistics have been framed in the Telegraph report is very loosey-goosey. For example, it says 40% of those polled support the introduction of Sharia in 'some areas of Britain'. Which areas? Large areas? Very specific areas? And what exactly was the question? What does did it mean by 'Sharia'? Are there specific and limited circumstances in which this 40% thought it should be applied? I can't begin to know what that 40% figure means without knowing exactly how the question was worded.

I couldn't tell you more about that right now, but I imagine it's available.

For your reference, Sharia is Islamic law.

We now have, I believe, around 50 Sharia courts in the UK. In Islam, manmade law is not deemed legitimate, which is one of the many ways in which Islamic culture is incompatible with ours (as our laws are manmade). Even if this poll didn't exist, the very fact that we have Sharia courts in the UK, honour killings and mosques shows us that a large amount of people here want Sharia. Islam and Sharia go hand in hand, after all.

[somerandombloke]

An my mate Nige? Some of His family is from Africa they been here since the 1880s but the other side there white. Does the fact there mixed race mark him down?

[admin]

Race is not an artificial construct. It exists. Put an African man next to an English man and there is a difference. Denying race exists is on par with denying that cheese or bicycles exist.

What is the difference? Spell it out if you are going to define it. Remember in my family we have white Africans and black Englishmen so I hope it is not too much of a challenge - but I admit they do look a bit different

You asked if Jews are white or not - suggesting that all Jews fall into one racial category. Don't tell lies, admin. You've been caught. Jews are not a race.

No it didn't silly. It was asking if they fell into 'your' white race or the other. I hadn't considered there would be a third category or they may be split between the two. So where exactly do Jewish people (as many self-describe) stand in the indigenous stakes?

Hey - I am not perfect, I am not all knowing. Correcting me is OK but calling me a liar when I have not lied, knowing my mind better than I, reminding Rachel you know Islam better than Muslims does appear to be a trifle presumptuous and conceited. It is a strange way of winning friends and influencing people. So maybe LibertyGB have got the right man for the right job.

Admin

[Rachael]

The problem I see with what you post here is that you take something that is a fact and extrapolate it into unsupported scaremongering. Is this the best we can expect from a university education these days?

Here is my final contribution to this thread:
http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/fac ... w-uk/18486

[somerandombloke]

So maybe LibertyGB have got the right man for the right job

Yeah a racist homophobe who would rewrite history. Like i say I am worried about immigration from an econmoic vew point and I dont like the more rabid element in Islam but I aint gonna vote for this dumb moron.

[Jackbuckby]

Race is not an artificial construct. It exists. Put an African man next to an English man and there is a difference. Denying race exists is on par with denying that cheese or bicycles exist.

What is the difference? Spell it out if you are going to define it. Remember in my family we have white Africans and black Englishmen so I hope it is not too much of a challenge - but I admit they do look a bit different

You asked if Jews are white or not - suggesting that all Jews fall into one racial category. Don't tell lies, admin. You've been caught. Jews are not a race.

No it didn't silly. It was asking if they fell into 'your' white race or the other. I hadn't considered there would be a third category or they may be split between the two. So where exactly do Jewish people (as many self-describe) stand in the indigenous stakes?

Hey - I am not perfect, I am not all knowing. Correcting me is OK but calling me a liar when I have not lied, knowing my mind better than I, reminding Rachel you know Islam better than Muslims does appear to be a trifle presumptuous and conceited. It is a strange way of winning friends and influencing people. So maybe LibertyGB have got the right man for the right job.

Admin

What are the differences? Skin colour, bone density, skull shape...and so much more. Doctors have to learn the differences as some treatments change depending on race. You can't pretend that race doesn't exist when it does.

I have called you a liar because you are a liar. You continue to say that I am a 'racist' when I have never supported hating people for their race, or booting people out their country for their race.

I know Islam because I have read the Qur'an and continue to study it. I also know Islam because I work with world-renowned scholars of Islam, including IQ al Rassooli and Robert Spencer. Yes, I do know Islam better than some people who call themselves Muslims.

[Jackbuckby]

So maybe LibertyGB have got the right man for the right job

Yeah a racist homophobe who would rewrite history. Like i say I am worried about immigration from an econmoic vew point and I dont like the more rabid element in Islam but I aint gonna vote for this dumb moron.

When have I ever suggested that people should be hated or kicked out of their country because of their race? When have I ever demonised or attacked someone because I didn't like their race?

When have I ever suggested that homosexuality is wrong, that I dislike it or that I am scared of it?

Calling me a racist homophobe is not just wrong, it's mindless and silly.

Oh, and suggesting I would rewrite history? Where on earth did you get that from?

[Nigel]

I am amused by those Je Suis Charlatans that don't mind opposing things for what they think are right reasons but then stop short .
If you don't agree with rabid islamists then surely it follows even to the meanest intelligence that more migration from islamic countries has to increase that thing you don't agree with ?
And please , the " sharia courts don't exist " line is laughable and well documented . Plenty of evidence that they counsel women to stay with violent husbands - if proper court did that there would be an outcry from the same people who who don't want to be thought racist and who cant stomach discussion about how islam fuels much of the horrible stuff we are now reading daily .
A very good evening
Nigel

[somerandombloke]

When have I ever suggested that homosexuality is wrong, that I dislike it or that I am scared of it?

Oh, and suggesting I would rewrite history? Where on earth did you get that from?

From your foolish partys site:-

Promote morality, marriage (but not same-sex 'marriage'), the family, the community and the nation state.

Discard the history books which describe our culture and civilisation as one of genocide and oppression.


Aint nothing wrong with a bloke marryin a bloke or a woman marrying a woman if they in love. Just ask my sister and her wife.

And Im sure India and much of Africa and varioys other places round the world would love it if you suddenly announced that the British Enpire never killed huge swathes of there people and enslaved the rest.

[Jackbuckby]

The problem I see with what you post here is that you take something that is a fact and extrapolate it into unsupported scaremongering. Is this the best we can expect from a university education these days?

Here is my final contribution to this thread:
http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/fac ... w-uk/18486

This is untrue. I take facts and evidence and come to a rational conclusion.

We have seen the destruction and horror that Islam causes. It is irrational to pretend that it will not continue if we allow more mosques to be built, more Muslims to live here and more 'allowances' for Islam in this, a wonderfully civilised country.

[Jackbuckby]

When have I ever suggested that homosexuality is wrong, that I dislike it or that I am scared of it?

Oh, and suggesting I would rewrite history? Where on earth did you get that from?

From your foolish partys site:-

Promote morality, marriage (but not same-sex 'marriage'), the family, the community and the nation state.

Discard the history books which describe our culture and civilisation as one of genocide and oppression.


Aint nothing wrong with a bloke marryin a bloke or a woman marrying a woman if they in love. Just ask my sister and her wife.

And Im sure India and much of Africa and varioys other places round the world would love it if you suddenly announced that the British Enpire never killed huge swathes of there people and enslaved the rest.

I disagree with gay marriage and support civil partnerships - as do almost all of my gay friends and family.

It's hardly homophobic to believe in civil partnerships.

History has already been rewritten. We are told over and over that our history is based on nothing but genocide and oppression and that is just not right. We're not rewriting history - we intend to stop history from being rewritten.

Are you purposely misreading? We never suggested that we say we have never enslaved anyone. That would be untrue. But people don't consider the fact that Africans are also guilty of slavery, and Muslims were some of the earliest people to ever hold slaves - and still have slaves today.

There is a hell of a lot to be proud about in our history, and our children should know much more about it.

[admin]

I have called you a liar because you are a liar. You continue to say that I am a 'racist' when I have never supported hating people for their race, or booting people out their country for their race.

Oh dear. Just because I have a problem with your own words, remember?

"I just believe that every country should be populated predominantly by its own people. I do believe in the racial aspect of that. And, in my opinion, that’s not race hate, it’s just realism."

So I think I can fairly call you a racist. Indeed I thought you might even be proud of it. As for race hate. Well you might not intend it and I never accused you of it so you are somewhat out of order there but that hasn't stopped you expressing hatred to people here. You have also declined to answer what is to happen to the non-white group should they threaten the predominance of your people. Whether what you would do is fired by hate or your eccentric beliefs makes little odds.

I will leave it there because I am unable to hold a rational discussion with you. I think you will think it is my fault. But then I must castigate myself for the effrontery of knowing your mind. On what point I should confess blissful ignorance.

Good Night,
Admin

[14BradfordRoad]

Some points where Islamism (use of Sharia courts) is concerned:
The 2009 study by the think tank Civitas found evidence of at least 85 “courts” operating across Britain.

A big question: Can sharia law work successfully alongside the UK legal system?
I doubt it as many principles that the two are founded on are highly incompatible, but under the arbitration act 1996 - allows almost any body to act as a dispute resolution service if both parties agreed to be bound by its decision, needless to say that very often (in Sharia) both parties will. In Britain, the Muslim Arbitration Tribunal makes use of sharia family law to settle disputes, obviously this limited adoption of sharia remains controversial.

Basic info found here: http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/fac ... w-uk/18486

The Muslim Law Sharia Council UK: http://www.shariahcouncil.org/

I'm not posting in favour of any political party but know that some of these points have been raised within this thread. Many of us will have concerns about the potential of further Islamisation.

[somerandombloke]

First I know literally no gay people who disagree with gay marraige and I got a lot of gay friends and family i think you lying on this one. An secondly it may not be homophobic to beleive in civil partnerships but it is homophobic to be against gay marraige like you are. Remember that denying gay people the rights of straight people like you want is homophobia. You are a homphobe plain an simple.

And the reasonw e are taught our civilization is one built on slavery and opppression is cos very sadly it is. The British Empire was built on the abcks of piracy and slaverys and rather than tryin to deny that why cant we point out how weve changed and lead the uncivlized by exmaple?

You are a racist and a homophobe an the electrate will know that come the day and will rightly tell you to sling your hook.

Now. I going away on a job for a few days. Hopefully I get back and youll have slung your hook from this place too and the Squashed Commuter coward what hasn't said a word in this debate will realise theres no point in arguing his racist homphobenonsense too.

[_HB]

As for the definition of indigenous - we do not have our own definition. The word has an official definition and it is:

"originating or occurring naturally in a particular place; native"

When you consider Britain, this refers to the people who are native to this island. The indigenous folk of Britain are the 'white' European folk who have lived here for over 16,000 years -- in fact, since the end of the last ice age.

Thanks. So where you say your policy is one of:

"encouraging some immigrants to go back to their land of origin"

Is 16,000 years ago where you draw the line? For example I can't trace my lineage that far back. Do I qualify for your encouragement to go back to my country of origin and if so, what form would that take and how would it be funded?

[Robin Orton]

I don't believe it's possible to say whether race 'exists'. 'Race' seems to be a shorthand for something like 'various genetic characteristics which are shared by people whose ancestry can be traced back to particular geographical areas.' The question surely is whether it's useful in practice to classify people on the basis of those characteristics.

Most informed people nowadays would, I believe, agree that, for most purposes, it isn't. It can lead to a sort of genetic determinism - 'black people inherit a natural sense of rhythm, it's in their genes' - which most scientists would, I think, reject. 'Ethnicity' is, I suggest, a more useful categorisation, in that it's something which we can (it we want to) choose for ourselves as a badge of identity.

Now I have come to learn more about Liberty GB (which I too had never heard of before) it seems to me that their most basic characteristics are social conservatism and a rather sad lack of cultural or spiritual self-confidence. which could easily be mistaken for paranoia. I am a Christian with broadly humanistic values, most of which are shared by many people in modern, liberal, secular, post-Christian, multi -cultural Britain. I just do not believe that my values, and my freedom to express them or attempt to live in accordance with them, are under threat. (Different if I lived in Syria, Libya, Iraq or Saudi Arabia, of course.)That does not mean that there are not some aspects of Islam which I find distasteful, or that I am not uncomfortable with some of the values of our modern, capitalist, consumerist, utilitarian society. But let's argue about them, not try to suppress or censor them.

That's why I would never vote for Liberty UK. Nor, I hope, would many other people around here

[Pally]

Race is not an artificial construct. It exists. Put an African man next to an English man and there is a difference. Denying race exists is on par with denying that cheese or bicycles exist.

........

What are the differences? Skin colour, bone density, skull shape...and so much more. Doctors have to learn the differences as some treatments change depending on race. You can't pretend that race doesn't exist when it does.

So my question would be so what in relation to those differences. Why do those matter at all in relation to where people live?

[Nigel]

I think we should be mindful of the need to preserve the right to debate and differ ie diversity in the sense that makes any sense .
To welcome civil union and not agree with gay marriage is NOT homophobic . It is a point of view . I personally welcome both but can respect that for someone who is religious ,marriage might mean only men and women . I would disagree with that but I wouldn't insult the person saying it .

Similarly the liberal bandying of "racist " - the idea of living in a country populated by mostly people who share your language culture and ethnicity is basically everyday reality to most countries apart from Europe and America . If I might offer a reductio ad absurdum , it would not be racist to say" I would not like to be the only white Anglo Saxon in Britain " . All immigration takes us incrementally towards that .
Your reasons for not wanting that could be anything from a desire to discuss Beowulf each day with a native speaker of English to downright racial prejudice but it is wrong to say it would be racist without evidence .

There are people that like nothing more than living with anyone but native British people - there is not a nasty word for them and good luck to them too but I find it sick making that intolerant aggressive types go round screaming racism and homophobia without challenge .
A very good evening
Nigel

[Robin Orton]

- the idea of living in a country populated by mostly people who share your language culture and ethnicity is basically everyday reality to most countries apart from Europe and America .
Nigel

Israel/Palestine? Syria? India? Burma? Malaysia? Egypt? Iraq? Nigeria? South Africa? Afghanistan? Democratic Republic of Congo? Tibet? Russia? Kazakhstan? Kenya? Sri Lanka?

If I might offer a reductio ad absurdum , it would not be racist to say" I would not like to be the only white Anglo Saxon in Britain "

Really? Sounds pretty racist to me.

[Nigel]

Robin
It might sound "pretty racist " but it's not .
For a start racism implies negative judgements of people based on assumptions associated with origin or ethnicity . Both absent from my point .
Secondly racism implies discriminatory behaviour by a powerful majority ( remember the little chap with his copy of Beowulf ) . Obviously it wouldn't be a majority if it were only person .
Technically post macPherson racism can also mean anything you don't agree with that is said by a white person but a different story again .

The white flight phenomenon is a case in point - thousands do it - hardly anyone quotes feeling more comfortable among people like themselves ) as opposed to lots of room to walk dogs etc) as their reason to leave urban centres .

Are we saying it is better not to have the discussion , keep telling everyone they are racist and ignore the concerns ? That is what it sounds like .
Back to the post - liberty GB , who I have never heard of before , obviously speak for a lot of people who will in some way be heard .
Anders Breivik spoke for a lot of people who will never be heard - how about we give at least 10% of the audience we give psychotic Islamists to talk about their grievance before the next mr Breivik lends them his ear ?
A very good evening
Nigel