Favourite Sydenham Businesses of 2014, 2015, ...

[Joanne]

All points taken on board and I’ve tried to think about this more.

Have looked at the Brockley Poll and it just offers a % voters for each Newcomer.

We do have a number of Newcomers to SE26, starting towards lower Sydenham: TSR Marketplace, The Lovely Gallery right up to top of Kirkdale, Fig & Pistachio with a fair few in between these parameters.

Tim you are suggesting SEE3 or another local group do a similar Poll to Brockley.

If so I wonder then if it could be useful to identify a few sub categories in order to extract further information, for example, maybe rate 1 – 10:

- Meeting local needs?
- Location
- Shop appearance (exterior/interior)
- Service
- Friendliness

Apart from creating positive feedback to those Newcomers who are getting aspects right, it would then hopefully inform the other retailers the areas required for improvement to help their business.

Just getting a % votes doesn’t do that.

Out of interest, do we have an equivalent, informative survey to ones like this?

http://transact.westminster.gov.uk/docs ... _Dec13.pdf

[Rachael]

I think having sub categories is a good idea, but we may not be able to drill down in that much detail in the first year - it would depend how many people actually voted.

I think it's a great idea to have best newcomer, favourite food, overall best of Sydenham. Something like that.

Then we have a nice story to fill half a column in the local press, could make award decals for the windows of the winning shops and (most importantly of all) we could create a feeling that Sydenham has a community that likes to shop local AND retailers worthy of awards (no matter how lowly those awards are). Stuff like that really changes the image of a place for people on the outside.

I think this is about PR, and changing the image of Sydenham as part of a long term plan to change the high street, not about having an immediate and measurable impact on the high street today. And feeding information back to local traders in a way that (hopefully) informs their future plans too.

So, has anyone approached SEE3 directly to see if they want to take this on?

[mosy]

Going back to the original post, to be honest I can't remember which shops have opened only since 1 Jan 2014 so for "newcomer 2014" a list of those would help, if anyone has one. Perhaps then we'd all happily make an effort to visit any new ones we haven't yet.

Can't say I think voting for particular shops is good as it's a form of ranking by a minute number of people. (Has anyone read any of the entry rules for best supermarket for [insert food] rosette awards?)

Hey, all "our" shops are probably doing quite well, thank you very much without "votes", or they wouldn't be surviving would they? So congrats to them all in days of most people's limited spending power. As Chris Best said elsewhere (paraphrased) at the moment there are almost no empty shops, so they must all be doing something right for their customers, as the saying goes.

Perhaps I see a local high street differently from some people. I see it as somewhere that services daily needs, which Sydenham Road does incredibly well. Long may it be so.

Now, what about a list of newcomers to be sure to visit?

[leenewham]

I think this is a good idea Tim. Penge are doing something similar at the moment, as are some of the boroughs I've worked with.

The idea of collecting data about the high street is something that goes way back, I've told SEE3 and others locally that a high street pack to attract investors with the latest demographics, footfall, rates rent and other local data would be about it, but as usual nothing happened. It's amusing that Joanne posted the link to the survey about Marylebone High Street that I posted a couple of years ago. In this she's right, although asking people what they want is never a good idea (because it's not how people think or shop, it's better to survey what they actually do and act).

Having data to attract the sort of businesses that would build on the current offer in Sydenham to make it distinct would be invaluable. Defining what Sydenham Road is about is the first step, but this all feels like we are going around in circles and I've sort of given up on Sydenham if I'm honest. Sydenham high street won't change that much over the coming years as there aren't many empty units.

Anyway, My favourite new businesses in Sydenham are:
On The Hoof Bistro
Green & Brown
Marketplace

But again, if I'm honest, I rarely go to Sydenham Road. We probably use the cafe in Mayow Park the most, followed by the charity shops, Trattoria and few others.

[Robin Orton]

I do wish Green and Brown would change their name. It always makes me think of what's produced when you have a gastro-intestinal infection.

[leenewham]

I think you are the only one who thinks like that Robin.

I hope your infection clears up soon though Robin. Thanks for sharing.

[sugahill cafe]

Can't say I think voting for particular shops is good as it's a form of ranking by a minute number of people. (Has anyone read any of the entry rules for best supermarket for [insert food] rosette awards?)

Hey, all "our" shops are probably doing quite well, thank you very much without "votes", or they wouldn't be surviving would they? So congrats to them all in days of most people's limited spending power. As Chris Best said elsewhere (paraphrased) at the moment there are almost no empty shops, so they must all be doing something right for their customers, as the saying goes

Bang on the money Mosy......

Although if i had to choose Inkwa Tatoos would win my vote for best newcomer (although they've probably been here a year already), a real creative hub that attracts visitors from in & outside the area they even put on a Christmas fair for locals that was a great success.

My other fav place to visit is the record basement at St Christophers Hospice best charity shop in town. Chris

[Joanne]

I know that I was not asked to do this but currently have some time. Yesterday thought that I’d try and be helpful, so walked up the high street with the aim to make a list of all the Newcomers from Lower Sydenham to the top of Kirkdale.

My plan was to provide a short para on each to describe their business. One thing I noticed was that lots of Newcomers were shut.

And I was also thinking perhaps I could help by investing in signage for a couple of the shops. So my intention was to speak with a couple of shop owners to see if they’d like this help.

I kept in the back of my mind that when I report back that Nigel might just think again that I was ‘like some unappointed National Audit Office’ and would resort to formality and wish me ‘a very good morning’ or ‘a very good evening’.

The result was I didn’t finish. Gave up. This was because I found the high street pretty grim. The weather didn’t help because it made the place look even tattier. Even Billings need to freshen up their signage, shop frontage. Kirkdale Books should consider taking up the artificial grass in wet and cold weather too.

Generally I felt that there was an overall lack of care for appearance. And these are aspects which don’t cost much money, has more to do with awareness.

My reason for giving up though was because I did not enjoy the overall experience. People shout across the road at each other (at children too). There appears to be a high unemployment ratio plus mental health problems too. There is a lot of drug and alcohol dependence.

These are real problems.

And requires a properly thought through strategy. One which has some sustainable quality about it too.

In terms of what is new (include the market):

There is too much ‘artisan’ at the core of what is going on at the moment. We already have the legacy of added graffiti on the high street, which adds to the scruffiness. And I really don’t think an animal safari will help matters.

So I’m concerned that energy and money will be continued to be spent in an unhelpful direction.
Sorting that important aspect out I believe is far more important than creating a voting system for best Newcomers. When we can already see for ourselves what works well and why, without limiting it to a timeline of a year.

I question though Mosy’s thoughts, he says:

‘’Hey, all "our" shops are probably doing quite well, thank you very much without "votes", or they wouldn't be surviving would they? ‘’

There is a constant struggle as a retailer and will no doubt be felt by many on Sydenham High Street.

Irregular, or unreliable opening hours and still not trading this week surely cannot be helping matters either.

Lastly, whilst I’m happy to hear Mosy’s ‘’daily needs’’ are met on the High Street, that is unequal to some others opinions.

I do and I know plenty others who live in the area and prefer to shop elsewhere. It’s also not just about us, we need to be an attractive place, with interesting shops to visit in order to attract a new footfall.

We don’t have this at present and is required to boost our local economy.

[Nigel]

Joanne
I am sorry if my throwaway comment deterred you but with respect I don't there was much death or glory about your endeavour . It's not the Pennine Way and there is a coffee shop every 50 yards if the weather had really closed in .
I think you should do your survey as I for one would be interested but please let it not be more "Billings should freshen up" - I think most of agree its a great place - a lot of effort went into its presentation , and still does .
I can think of 10 shops that make my eyes bleed and if you wanted to name them I think there would be some purpose .

I am now sensitive about my customary salutation , so on this occasion
leaving you to add your own .
A .......... ..............
Nigel

[Maria]

Nigel - please, for goodness sakes, we all rely on your salutations to boost our morale; please do never leave us alone to add our own, God knows what they will turn out to be, it might turn out depressing!

(... and I am still laughing out loud about the Pennine Way and Sydenham coffee shops every 50 metres and the abominable February weather closing in....)

[Joanne]

I do realise Nigel that I wasn’t setting out to walk 267 miles from Edale to Kirk Yetholm.

Since I was doing a National Audit Survey – prepared with my note pad and pen and all conditions, except shouting and people being rude to shop cashiers. When they are being served still having head phones on or speaking on their phone. It felt uncomfortable.

White teenagers, born here but all speaking as if they are from Jamaica. There is an attitude problem and it can feel threatening too. Mopeds on the pavement crossing Venner Road onto the High Street at great speed, unforgiving to pedestrians etc.

If the forum thinks it is useful for me to go back and put together a list of Newcomers, their address with a brief description of each company then I can do by this weekend.

I think they will be open by then.

For example do you know what the Sports Academy on the High Street is doing? Or who is behind the teddy bear shop at Kirkdale. I could try to understand more.

Good to hear you are so easily pleased Maria.

[leenewham]

How about doing something instead of just talking, moaning and being derogative and sometimes extremely rude about people and local businesses off on this forum?

Just an idea…

[michael]

Who is behind the teddy bear shop at Kirkdale.

I would be happy to pass on her details via PM, if you want them. She is a lovely lady who lives locally and has had shops all over London in the past but has now chosen to open a shop close to where she lives.

[leenewham]

Or even better, go and speak to her in the shop. I met the business owners we did the What If's for, went to high street 'traders' meetings in Kirkdale, Forest Hill and Sydenham etc. It will give you a great insight to actually meet with them and will surprise you.

As you are so interested in Sydenham Road, I presume you are local and pass the shops every day on the way to Kensington and Dulwich, so it's not out of the way is it?

If you have something to offer, why not go and offer it?

[sugahill cafe]

White teenagers, born here but all speaking as if they are from Jamaica. There is an attitude problem and it can feel threatening too.

Hey Welcome to South London there is all sorts here.... It almost sounds as if you have never been out before not locally anyway. I have never felt threatened in this area but then again i am the type of person who would happily have a conversation with a white youth with a Jamaican accent as i would an old posh bird with perfect Queen's English. I think Joanne should open a shop here and show us all how to do it she could hire a security guard to fend off all the white Jamaicans from trying to steal her high end artwork. A very good Afternoon Chris.

[Joanne]

I think that I’ve been misunderstood, so rather than apologise I’ll explain why:

I set out with good intention. This was to create a simple list with all the new shops and a brief description of the services they offer. I used the Sports Academy and Teddy Bear shop as examples, for no other reason than if I don’t know much about them then others may not too.

This was not a personal evaluation, I was not proposing to give my views, just to provide the information. Then SEE3, or Admin, anyone who felt inclined could create a Poll if they thought useful in keeping with the OP.

No doubt like many on this forum, I’m constantly trying to think of ways of improving the high street. But I personally keep hitting a brick wall, not really knowing the best ways to make a difference. If I did know then I’d like to contribute. Actually do something too – use some of the resources that we rely on with our business – share them.

Jan – Feb are good months for me to help too because we are not likely to trade, do Pop Ups during this period. At least not this month.

Unfortunately, it’s a reality, I really do find the high street a bit grim and depressing.

Rather like the difference between shopping at Sainsbury’s in Lower Sydenham and the difference it makes to the whole experience if we go instead to Sainsbury’s at Dog Kennel Hill. I’d prefer to travel further!

On reflection I could have phrased things better yesterday. I don’t intend to offend. May be I think Sydenham lacks its’ own identity in a way. Is that better?

Have just seen your post Sugahill.

I’m out and about all the time, know S London very well too. This hasn’t by no means been a sheltered existence. I manufactured furniture for nearly ten years in South Africa, in a district which was definitely not be considered safe. We were held at gun point, you name it.

But it had a richness and depth about it too – a real identity.

[Rachael]

Rather like the difference between shopping at Sainsbury’s in Lower Sydenham and the difference it makes to the whole experience if we go instead to Sainsbury’s at Dog Kennel Hill. I’d prefer to travel further!

What's wrong with the Sainsbury's in Lower Sydenham? More spacious and better stocked and with a larger car park than at Dog Kennel Hill. And the staff are always very helpful and pleasant. On the other hand, the one at Dog Kennel Hill is one of my least favourite.

I used to live in East Dulwich, as it happens, and always drove to Bell Green rather than go to Dog Kennel Hill to fight for a parking space and shoulder room in the rather cramped store!

To go back to your post the other day, I was disappointed that you didn't get to talk to shop owners about improving their signage, as you originally intended. It has been a bone of contention on this forum about how easy, or otherwise, it is to get shop owners in Sydenham to improve their exteriors. I would have been really interested to hear what feedback you got from the shop owners, and I think the suggestion made by others here that you go and talk to them while you are feeling proactive in these quiet months, is a very good idea indeed. You have a wealth of experience, but (it seems) in a different sector of the market and it may be that these shop owners have concerns and priorities that you haven't considered.

[admin]

No doubt like many on this forum, I’m constantly trying to think of ways of improving the high street. But I personally keep hitting a brick wall, not really knowing the best ways to make a difference. If I did know then I’d like to contribute. Actually do something too – use some of the resources that we rely on with our business – share them.

Join the crew Joanne. I've been trying for 25 years. I've seen better souls than you and me try and fail.

What you and me have to accept is that we have no executive authority. Or even any money to bribe people (and what SEE3 had was peanuts) into doing what we feel is good for them. I'm not sure I really even know that. I do know what's wrong but telling people they are wrong is seldom the best way to persuade them to listen.

This is not unique to Sydenham. I've wasted too many hours watching TV retail gurus trying to reform a cafe, restaurant whatever. What they suggest is often brilliant and eminently sensible. But only exceptionally is it accepted and, more importantly, executed. That's with a captive audience.

So start by accepting the limitations of getting other people to do as you suggest. If you can't accept that then the only way is do something yourself for yourself and hope the example set is replicated.

Otherwise you would need to go on a charm offensive. Find something they do even half well (and that can take some work) and praise it. Encourage them to broaden their success. Bite your lip when they don't.

But my recommendation is don't even try. If people with greater charm than you or I are finding it difficult - then there is a better use of our time. For me that's providing a medium for other people to discuss what's right and wrong with Sydenham. It does, I hope, have some use in making successes better known. An example is the Mayow Park Cafe. More people know about that, and may well have visited it, than would have bumped into it by accident.

For everyone who reads about a retail success here then multiple friends and family will hear it secondhand and thirdhand - a part of the Sydenham Grapevine.

I tried once to compile here a usable and complete list of businesses and properties available. I failed. STC with much greater resources also tried and also failed. Their webmaster wrote a really good article (now lost) on why this was. Even, as you found out, compiling a list of newcomers is not simple. But don't despair. There are good businesses here. Good but not perfect. I am of the opinion we should champion them whether they are new or old. Let the market destroy the bad businesses though usually a bad business is preferable to an empty property.

So go find good traders, enjoy them, and tell everybody what they are doing right. Resist the temptation to tell them what they are doing wrong. A good business is usually aware of that though its priorities for improvement may be elsewhere.

Best Wishes,
Admin

[Joanne]

Rather like the difference between shopping at Sainsbury’s in Lower Sydenham and the difference it makes to the whole experience if we go instead to Sainsbury’s at Dog Kennel Hill. I’d prefer to travel further!

What's wrong with the Sainsbury's in Lower Sydenham? More spacious and better stocked and with a larger car park than at Dog Kennel Hill. And the staff are always very helpful and pleasant. On the other hand, the one at Dog Kennel Hill is one of my least favourite.

I used to live in East Dulwich, as it happens, and always drove to Bell Green rather than go to Dog Kennel Hill to fight for a parking space and shoulder room in the rather cramped store!

To go back to your post the other day, I was disappointed that you didn't get to talk to shop owners about improving their signage, as you originally intended. It has been a bone of contention on this forum about how easy, or otherwise, it is to get shop owners in Sydenham to improve their exteriors. I would have been really interested to hear what feedback you got from the shop owners, and I think the suggestion made by others here that you go and talk to them while you are feeling proactive in these quiet months, is a very good idea indeed. You have a wealth of experience, but (it seems) in a different sector of the market and it may be that these shop owners have concerns and priorities that you haven't considered.

Okay, if it is thought to be a useful exercise then I am happy to meet with shop owners and discuss signage and listen to their thoughts.
I don’t think that it alters much just because I sell fine art. It’s retail so the same underlying principles apply.
Presentation, marketing etc.
Shall I finish putting together a list of Newcomers too?

[leenewham]

Bang on Admin.

What I've learnt is that businesses don't like to feel like they are being told they are doing anything wrong. They don't like to feel that the reason they aren't doing that well is to do with them rather than (insert name of supermarket in here) or the council, or (insert other reason here).

As a small, local business owner I make mistakes and I can empathise with that view. Some businesses are difficult to engage with on any level, others do want help and are good to work with, but you have to earn their trust.

That takes patience and time, something a project like What If Sydenham didn't have. It took time and effort from different parties to court the successes that project delivered, as does any high street work. It takes a lot of time and effort,it is not, as some commentators think, 'just a bit of photoshop'.

But this has gone way, way, way, off topic from Tim's very good initial suggestion. Competitions do have an effect, be it for window displays, shop fronts, new businesses etc. I hope this is an idea SEE3 run with.

Anyway, so where will be build these houses Tim?