Sydenham Artisan Market - 2nd Saturday of the month

[Chris Best]

Yes it is the 2nd Saturday of the month tomorrow and Sydenham Artisan market is back. Please come and support the market and the traders. This month is in the holiday season and we are missing some of our regular stall holders but those that are trading will welcome your visit.

The market is in Venner Square and Queensthorpe Square and they both have different stalls on display, so worth visiting both from 11am to 5pm.

SEE3 in launching the market were keen to support local businesses and have agreed with Lewisham that the cost of the pitch is £25 to bring your own and £35 with the stall set up and ready to trade.

Bookings are through Lewisham's street market team - http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/inmyarea/mar ... arket.aspx

Where possible SEE3 run workshops for children and arrange for other entertainers - anyone wishing to join in the fun please contact SEE3 on info@SEE3.co.uk

[Chris Best]

Reminder that this Saturday is market day. Lewisham markets are currently taking bookings - £35 with the stall set up to trade and £25 if you want to bring your own stall. All you have to do is be registered to trade with Lewisham markets.

We are working with Sydenham Arts to colloborate on some entertainment and looks like we have some drummers - I will confirm - and a workshop for children.

I will post up when we have final confirmation of the those who have taken a market stall - better to book early so we can spread the word about who is trading from 11 - 5pm.

[G-Man]

Great.

Suggestion, why not replace the now out of date Arts Festival banners along the road with banners advertising the markets?

If they're going to be a success they need marketing.

G-Man

[admin]

Yes good idea. Will do tomorrow.

Admin

[Chris Best]

Reminder that the market is happening now on Venner Square with our master drummer running free workshops - come and join us for a session on the drums - on site until 5pm.

Plus great range of stalls - sun is shining so visit your high street.

Already working on the design of the lamp post banners to replace Sydenham Arts Festival - should be up in the next month.

[G-Man]

So, how was it? We're away so couldn't wander down.

[mosy]

Hi. I went along to Venner Square and although I live close by I would say the stalls (full complement) were all of a quality that would make it worthwhile to make an effort to go to if possible (I appreciate you say you weren't able to G-man). Oh, and yes, you could have had a go on the bongos too

Does anyone know (Chris Best maybe?) if there's a list published anywhere now, i.e. after the event, of traders who presented plus contact details? That would be handy for times when you see something but only decide too late that you wish you'd bought it...

[jonathan_har]

I visited briefly, but didn't see any drumming unfortunately. The stalls were quite good, I bought food from the excellent Mishmash(?!) who have had a stall before so great to see them back again. The stalls again were corralled around the carbuncle bench, turning their back to the street which seems crazy to me. And again, no advertising or fanfare, either before or on the day. The 1st rule of business, surely. The market has being going for a while now, so I imagine it is as good and well attended as it is going to get. Not good enough or financially viable I would imagine. My worry is that when the funding runs out it will disappear...

[John J Rambo]

The stalls again were corralled around the carbuncle bench, turning their back to the street which seems crazy to me.

Yes, that has always struck me as quite bizarre. Not sure why it is like that when passing trade must be invaluable to the success of an event such as this.

[Tim Lund]

I visited briefly, but didn't see any drumming unfortunately. The stalls were quite good, I bought food from the excellent Mishmash(?!) who have had a stall before so great to see them back again. The stalls again were corralled around the carbuncle bench, turning their back to the street which seems crazy to me. And again, no advertising or fanfare, either before or on the day. The 1st rule of business, surely. The market has being going for a while now, so I imagine it is as good and well attended as it is going to get. Not good enough or financially viable I would imagine. My worry is that when the funding runs out it will disappear...

How much funding is involved, and how much is needed? Chris Best spoke to me recently about this, and drew my attention to the £1.5 million subsidy which West Norwood Feast had got from the GLA, although that is not just for the Feast.

Looking at Lewisham's charging structure



there appears to be two types of market: long established, traditional such as in Deptford, Lewisham or Catford Broadway, and newer, monthly premium markets such as our Sydenham Artisan Market and the Catford Monthly market, which was relaunched earlier this year. And there are other sorts of market / street trading - from regular single pitches such as Angie's Flower stall, to successful new markets such as the Street Feast in the old Lewisham Model Market, or nearer by, the Horniman Farmers' Market, on whose web site you can see a listing and contact details for stall holders, including at least two based in Sydenham.

So I wonder what Sydenham Artisan Market stallholders are getting for the premium price they have to pay for pitches. If the marketing is inadequate, and the arrangement of stalls fails to connect to the High Street, then either they should as a body take over running of the market, or more likely develop their individual businesses with pitches elsewhere. If there were any traders interested in going it alone, as Angie does, then that could work, but it's long hours, and I don't think a great income. I've also wondered if some entrepreneur, such as the managers of the revitalised Lewisham Model Market could run a successful market here, without need for any subsidy. I don't really know, but I suspect it would be a bit marginal.

[leenewham]

Only a tiny amount of the money went to Feast, which was for graphic design and signage, both of which SEE3 have the money for and don't seem to be spending it.

The 1.5 million mostly went on paving, business support, shops fronts, networking events. I was involved in this, working with Lambeth. I hope SEE3 have met with the guys at Feast (which is community run), I've offered to introduce them, they are well worth talking to as Feast is probably one of the most successful outdoor markets in London and has made a huge difference locally (huge increases in footfall, although many shops still complain that it does nothing for them, in which case they need to look at their business from the outside and work out why all these extra people in the high street aren't going into their shop). There is a lot to be learnt from what other people have done in other areas. I don't believe in just copying, but taking learnings and sharing information between different areas.

But this has all been discussed before with the powers that be and I can't understand why none of it's happening here and why it seems to take so long. The markets seriously need help, only one square (Venner Road) was occupied when I drove past, the other was empty. It looked quite small and the stalls turned their back on the road with no communication of what I should have been missing. The day before there was nothing that seems to indicate a market would happen. Outside the station on Friday I didn't see anything.

I really want the markets to succeed, but unless it's better promoted (which is more than just putting posters in windows and fliers through doors) I can't see it lasting. I know some of the stallholders think the same way, some of which stopped going because of poor promotion and lack of trade.

I know some will start saying 'oh you are talking things down again' but we have to pull out heads out of the sand. Lots of other areas are doing really exciting stuff, we need to compete. If we just say 'well, its all right', we will fall behind.

I know that the markets in Sydenham are struggling. Let give them the best chance of survival. Lots of ideas have been put forward by various parties to ensure this, will the powers that be make them happen and spend some of the money they have in the pot?

[leenewham]

Just a little ps on this.

The success of Feast would definitely have helped with getting further funding for Lambeth to spend in West Norwood to support and build on what had already started. The 1.5 million was part of the Outer London Fund, of which there is a round 3 coming up. I hope that our traders groups, see3 etc consider putting in a bid.

[Pally]

Only a tiny amount of the money went to Feast, which was for graphic design and signage, both of which SEE3 have the money for and don't seem to be spending it.

The 1.5 million mostly went on paving, business support, shops fronts, networking events. I was involved in this, working with Lambeth. I hope SEE3 have met with the guys at Feast (which is community run), I've offered to introduce them, they are well worth talking to as Feast is probably one of the most successful outdoor markets in London and has made a huge difference locally (huge increases in footfall, although many shops still complain that it does nothing for them, in which case they need to look at their business from the outside and work out why all these extra people in the high street aren't going into their shop). There is a lot to be learnt from what other people have done in other areas. I don't believe in just copying, but taking learnings and sharing information between different areas.

But this has all been discussed before with the powers that be and I can't understand why none of it's happening here and why it seems to take so long. The markets seriously need help, only one square (Venner Road) was occupied when I drove past, the other was empty. It looked quite small and the stalls turned their back on the road with no communication of what I should have been missing. The day before there was nothing that seems to indicate a market would happen. Outside the station on Friday I didn't see anything.

I really want the markets to succeed, but unless it's better promoted (which is more than just putting posters in windows and fliers through doors) I can't see it lasting. I know some of the stallholders think the same way, some of which stopped going because of poor promotion and lack of trade.

I know some will start saying 'oh you are talking things down again' but we have to pull out heads out of the sand. Lots of other areas are doing really exciting stuff, we need to compete. If we just say 'well, its all right', we will fall behind.

I know that the markets in Sydenham are struggling. Let give them the best chance of survival. Lots of ideas have been put forward by various parties to ensure this, will the powers that be make them happen and spend some of the money they have in the pot?

Such a lot of sensible comments and suggestions Lee - I cant understand why, if SEE3 are not taking up ideas etc. although I am conscious that I don't have details of exactly what is planned by SEE3. I also don't understand why the rent is so much higher than others, as detailed by Tim .....

[mosy]

I think the rent + having to stand there all day whatever the weather is a big problem. I can't remember if I've mentioned the amount of profit needed to be earned to cover that alone on low-cost items - if I haven't someone has. A boot-fair price would make more sense. If stall rent income is being sought, hold more regular market days.

If I refer to inward facing stalls blocking off the attraction rather than encouraging people in to see what's going on, I'll sound like a broken record, if I don't already on that point. Seems to fall on deaf ears though

I'm encouraged that Chris Best is working on lamppost banners. I have a feeling they're quite high above eyeline or car window sight (so decorative but invisible in real terms). I'll have to look again ...

Why pink and white stripes for flyers? Not exactly striking colours, but perhaps pink/white is meant to be symbolic of something?

Whilst I agree with Leenewham in principle, a market with half a dozen stalls in a pocket is what it is. It therefore has to survive on that basis since there's no intention for it to grow beyond that as far as I know.

[leenewham]

I only just red Tims post as the table didn't show on my phone. Mosy, I agree with you. Yes, I said I agree with you

The rents for Sydenham seem high for what it is.

How about following what the stalls in Crystal Palace charge:

The basic stall fee is 10% of takings on an honesty basis – with a minimum stall fee of £20 and a maximum fee of £90.

It's then in Lewisham (or whoever runs the market) vested interests to promote it and make it a success and share in traders fortune.

Or the West Norwood Feast charges:

At time of writ­ing (9/10/2012) cost of a stall is £50 at the Food Hub and £30 at all other hubs. This gets many many many times the footfall of Sydenham and is much much bigger.

These are the charges for Greenwich Market:

All stall prices are inclusive of VAT.
Tuesday - £10 per day
Wednesday - £10 per day
Thursday - £15 per day
Friday - £15 per day
Saturday - £50 per day
Sunday - £50 per day
Cold and hot food stalls Tuesday - Friday £25
Hot food traders pay £65 per day Saturday/Sunday
Cold food /fresh produce £50 per day Saturday/Sunday

Forest Hill Fashion week Market: £25

The £35 for Sydenham's market suddenly seems expensive for the amount of footfall it gets, how much promotion it gets etc.

The fact is, markets are important. It would be good if Lewisham saw it as an investment. Many of the pop ups in See3 were actually market stalls from Feast! What if we had our own home grown businesses that grew from our local market to fill empty shops?

On the Hoof is a local business that did just that. From a small kiosk in the station to a fantastic new bistro in the high street. I did some consulting with LB Barking on high streets. The market there feeds the shops, they had 100% occupancy in the high street when the recession was at it's worst a few years ago.

Markets are important for high streets.

Is there any way we can get the cost of the stalls reduced? If the council won't budge on price, then how about a group of locals come together to think of innovative ideas to subsidise the price for stallholders?

In addition to this I understand traders need liability insurance which as about £50 a year (for all markets). I believe Lewisham charged £300 for each market held in Forest Hill Station, which I would presume is one reason why it was only once a month. I don't think this cost is unreasonable, but it depends on whether we look at these things as investments, to nurture until they take root, for the benefit of local community and long term prosperity or just trying to make them pay from the offset, which few businesses do.

If we do go down the route of high street banners, I hope they take my advice (and Mosy's) and make them simple. The Olympic Banners worked really well. People don't really read them, as Mosy said they are too high up. It would be more effective to do something in the square and outside of the station a few days before the markets. I know SEE3 is short of volunteers, but perhaps there is way of making it happen.

Will, if you are reading this, apologies for not getting back, but I think we should do what we discussed.

[Tim Lund]

If the Sydenham Artisan Market has the Venner Road Square on the 2nd Saturday of the month, with participants paying a premium for what promotional support SEE3 gives, what's to stop, let us say, Sydenham Traders holding a market there every 1st, 3rd or 4th Saturday of the month, paying £17.50 per pitch rate for "Other periodic street markets (5 pitches of more)" and doing their own marketing and promotion, maybe taking up these ideas of Lee and others?

I think it could be a good way for existing Sydenham Traders, with more out of the way business locations, to make themselves better known to those of us who don't get down past Kent House Road so often.

[Tim Lund]

One reason for thinking about this is that this last Saturday I was taking entrance money, and counting up totals raised from 17 different stalls at my Dad's village fete - just under £6,000. It's obviously not the same, but there were elements which could be here, such as street food, vintage clothes stalls and fruit and veg. Of these mentioned, it was the food stall, selling paella


and teas which made useful money - and the beer tent. Most of the commercial stalls were rather marginal, although that would be because they didn't really fit the marketing - which was overwhelmingly as a family attraction, with bouncy castles, games, jumping around on hay bales, but also a good line up of bands entertaining parents.

OTOH, a stall selling cut flowers did surprisingly well



which makes me think about Angie's stall on Sydenham Road.

[broken_shaman]

If the Sydenham Artisan Market has the Venner Road Square on the 2nd Saturday of the month, with participants paying a premium for what promotional support SEE3 gives, what's to stop, let us say, Sydenham Traders holding a market there every 1st, 3rd or 4th Saturday of the month, paying £17.50 per pitch rate for "Other periodic street markets (5 pitches of more)" and doing their own marketing and promotion, maybe taking up these ideas of Lee and others?

I think it could be a good way for existing Sydenham Traders, with more out of the way business locations, to make themselves better known to those of us who don't get down past Kent House Road so often.

The market is £35 because you get a market stall set up for you to trade from.

You can do it for £20 by bringing your own stall/ gazebo. So, there's no real advantage to be gained by traders organising their own market other than opening up more trading days, although this could be useful in the run-up to Christmas.

[alywin]

Not for the first time, I wish this forum had a "Like" or "Thumbs-up" button, because there's a lot of sense being talked here.

It could make quite a lot of sense to have *something* on a weekly basis, say. I wonder, at the moment, how many people just wander past and go "Oh, there are some stalls here", "Oh, there's nothing here this week", without realising there's actually a logical pattern to it? I know there are flyers about the market, but you have to actively go and pick one up to find it out.

[Chris Best]

It is the Sydenham Market next Saturday - 11 October. SEE Sydenham has been working with Sydenham Arts to bring a group of morris dancers to the high street - take a look at their web site - http://www.wildhunt.org.uk - looks like a lot of fun! We are working on the performance times so more to follow.

Yes the stalls are still £35 ready to trade from so no need to worry about the set up - they are waterproof and the charge includes the electricty as well as the street market licence to trade. If you want to bring your own stall then £25. We are trading from 11am - 5pm. Please contact Lewisham Markets to book.

The lamp post banners are on order and arranging with Skanska to switch over the Sydenham Arts Festival - plus we have agreement from Pedder to hang our banner on their railings during the lead up to the market next Saturday.

So we need residents to shop in the market and more market traders to increase the diversity. SEE3 are always happy to have more volunteers who want to help out on the promotion and ensure we build the market into a regular event.