Billings: Fresh never frozen?

[Mayowthorpe]

Last Friday, I bought some burgers from Billings (among some steaks and sausages) and took them home and placed them in the fridge for a BBQ on the Saturday.

When I went to cook them for my guests, I noticed they were a bit frozen - and owed this to the settings on fridge we just adopted.

Today, my wife went to buy some burgers from Billings, and the staff member went to get them from the back of the store. They came back frozen, and when my wife questioned this it was stated the burgers "keep their shape better" when frozen.

I have bought burgers frm butchers across London (including Flock & Herd and William Rose in SE London), and have never come across "frozen" fresh burgers.

Given the fact that Billings state on their website that they sell produce that is "never frozen", I am confused as to why they would be misleading the public?

http://www.billings.moonfruit.com/

Has anyone else had a similar experience?

MT

[mosy]

..Edit - as I hit submit too soon. It's not for me to second guess how Billings store their burgers, so should ask them.

I do know that you have to make burgers beforehand and chill them, and it's possible they do that in a 0°C chlller, which might be a smidge lower to be on the safe side (that's the second guessing bit). I do know you can't make up fresh patties and expected them to be grilled, shallow fried or anything without them falling apart if not chilled. Well unless you glue them together with flour, crumbs, egg whatever and even then you're on a sticky wicket (literally if not chilled) and I think theirs are just meat and flavourings.

For meat, I would take "never frozen" for burgers to mean made from fresh meat (probably in volume the day before as just not possible to make there and then) - but as I say you'd have to ask them.

[sparticus]

I have also wondered about Billing's claim to sell free-range meat, especially chicken. The chickens they do sell are not labeled free-range and I can't believe that a producer would go to the expense of producing certified free-range chicken without labeling it as such especially as the producer's website says that they produce both intensively-reared and free range birds. I like Billings and I would hate them to fall foul of the trading standards people, but I have in fact stopped buying their chicken because I'm not convinced of its provenience.

[Rachael]

..Edit - as I hit submit too soon. It's not for me to second guess how Billings store their burgers, so should ask them.

I do know that you have to make burgers beforehand and chill them, and it's possible they do that in a 0°C chlller, which might be a smidge lower to be on the safe side (that's the second guessing bit). I do know you can't make up fresh patties and expected them to be grilled, shallow fried or anything without them falling apart if not chilled. Well unless you glue them together with flour, crumbs, egg whatever and even then you're on a sticky wicket (literally if not chilled) and I think theirs are just meat and flavourings.

For meat, I would take "never frozen" for burgers to mean made from fresh meat (probably in volume the day before as just not possible to make there and then) - but as I say you'd have to ask them.

Perhaps we should ask The Butchery in Forest Hill how they make their burgers. They are displayed in their chiller cabinet, not kept in the fridge and don't fall apart when you cook them. I make my own burgers and if you make them with just meat and other dry ingredients (onions, herbs and spices) they will fall apart no matter how chilled. There has to be some binding agent, even if it's just a teaspoon of mustard or a squeeze of tomato paste. The 'flavourings' that Billings use might well be something that also binds. It also helps if you are using real, fresh mince. The texture is much softer and stickier than the pellets of dried gristle that pass for 'premium' mince in the supermarket.

[Sydenham Syd]

I disagree - there is no need for any binding agent in burger mince - 100 ground beef is the way. One can add herbs/onions etc, but frankly, if the grill is hot enough prior to the initial scorch, then burgers should be fine, especially if sufficient care is taken during cooking. I accept that chilling them is a help however. One thing that is pretty important is the texture of the mince - i.e. how fine. The finer the easier, but then I personally like it a little more coarse. Off the topic slightly however -

I will flag this post to Billings as Amar will definitely want to see it if he hasn't already and will respond I am sure. I have asked about the chickens in the past - they are barn reared, but of sufficient quality. They are fed on free range food I believe, but are barn reared rather than free range reared - if that makes sense. I personally believe in the environment/taste argument, but then again there is a cost issue. I personally wouldn't mind paying the extra couple of quid, but I am sure many would.

[sparticus]

Thanks for the clarification. I don't have a problem with the quality of Billing's chickens, they taste fine to me. My choice is based mainly on animal welfare grounds and I want most of the animals that I eat to have enjoyed a reasonable life before slaughter- and yes, I'm a hypocrite for eating foie gras in On the Hoof the other night. I justify my hypocrisy by the fact that I eat chicken at least once a week, foie gras maybe a couple of times a year, and it's wonderful!

Barn-raised fowl covers a range of possible conditions as I understand it, so I would need to know more about the particular conditions these birds are raised in, but nevertheless Billings should make the provenance of their chickens clear.

[amob]

Hello, this is Amar Billing.

This thread has been brought to my attention so I would like to take the time to answer a few of the questions.

The burgers we sell are all made onsite from with our fresh mince and herbs. 90% of the burgers are frozen and a few are sold fresh in the counter. The reason we freeze the burgers is that they have no preservatives in them, apart from a bit of salt, therefore they change colour quickly. We prefer to freeze them when they are freshly made and sell a quality frozen product. We never hide that they are frozen and usually sell them directly from the freezer, however I will admit it is not immediately obvious and I will ensure that they clearly labelled as previously frozen so make sure the confusion doesn't arise again.

We have an issue with the sign-age we can obtain from our supplier. We buy ungraded free range chickens, which are cheaper so allows us to keep the costs down for the customer. The chickens that are suitable for roasting are selected and the rest, the ones with blemishes and broken bones, are then cut up into fillets, legs and thighs etc. Our supplier will not give sign age with ungraded free-rage birds as they feel it could undermine the quality of the product they produce. Therefore we have made the decision to completely overhaul our chicken range. From next week we will have to increase the price on our free-range chicken (because we will buy graded chicken with sign-age) and will add a new cheaper option of high welfare barn reared chickens. This way all the chicken will be clearly labelled and no confusion will arise and everyone can chose which they prefer.

I hope this clears up any issues, please feel free to ask any more questions you may have.

[Sydenham Syd]

Good stuff Amar.

[Annie.]

It's good to see a positive response from a responsible trader, who actually seems to care about Sydenham, well done.

[mosy]

Hi amob. I just popped into your shop to buy a few things and asked about the frozen burgers. I was told what you said also, that the burgers were made from fresh meat but could then be frozen. However, he could only say that the wording on your website was a matter of interpretation. I pointed out that "If you care about quality food, fresh never frozen, ..." was unequivocal - either it is or isn't, so he said he'd ask that the wording on the website be looked at.

I think the point is not whether you do or not, but that your site says you don't when you do.

Personally, I'd rather have fresh/frozen than fresh/going off, lol, as long as I know, since cannot refreeze in same raw state. As you say you will change the labelling, it just leaves the website "blurb" needing attention.

Usual helpful service and came away with good quality fish and meat, thumbup.

[amob]

You raise a good point about the wording on the website, I have now amended it. Thank you.

[Pally]

Thanks for the really helpful information. As Annie says really good to have helpful detailed responses from an interested trader

[mosy]

@ amob: It was the opening poster who noticed so credit to Mayowthorpe.

I forgot to add that your butcher mentioned in passing that gluten-free sausages were frozen due to zero preservatives (fine) - I didn't know you did gluten free. As G-F sausages are almost impossible to find leaving coeliacs tearing their hair out as bangers are the one thing that can't be made at home, it might be worth mentioning them on your website. Presumably burgers (from your description) are also, assuming they're not cross-contaminated with any breadcrumbs used for fritters or whatever.

@ Sydenham Syd, post 29/8 9.03: and I'm sorry to be a bit off topic too: Agree burgers need to be only meat, and what you say generally. If anything, it's adding onion that can stop them holding. Another thing can be overworking them. I occasionally make them as my son likes Billing's paprika and jalapeno saus which aren't a stock item so I use those flavourings in home-made burgers instead.

[G-Man]

As far as I'm aware William Rose used to get their chickens from the same farm. They were never labelled. Not sure now though.

I trust Billings completely. And I think Amar's response clarifies that trust even more so.

I think this is the supplier, sorry if I am wrong:

http://www.diaperpoultry.co.uk/products ... maingrp=CK

[sparticus]

We have an issue with the sign-age we can obtain from our supplier. We buy ungraded free range chickens, which are cheaper so allows us to keep the costs down for the customer. The chickens that are suitable for roasting are selected and the rest, the ones with blemishes and broken bones, are then cut up into fillets, legs and thighs etc. Our supplier will not give sign age with ungraded free-rage birds as they feel it could undermine the quality of the product they produce. Therefore we have made the decision to completely overhaul our chicken range. From next week we will have to increase the price on our free-range chicken (because we will buy graded chicken with sign-age) and will add a new cheaper option of high welfare barn reared chickens. This way all the chicken will be clearly labelled and no confusion will arise and everyone can chose which they prefer.

That's really helpful. Thanks for taking the time to clarify the issue.

[sparticus]

I feel my intervention may have deprived sydenham of a source of good value free-range chicken. Seems like they are having a bit of a hissy fit. Can't they simply remove the labels from their whole chickens? This is what I supect the late lamented Parhams in Beckenham used to do. Then they can sell them as free-range without confusing their customers. In my defence, I did ask in the shop some months ago about the provenance of the chickens and was simply told that they were free-range. Graded free-range chickens can be had in Lidl for about 6 quid a pop. I'd rather give my money to Billings but not if I'm expected to pay a premium for the privilege.

[Smiffy]

Can I just ask if those questioning Billings' stuff had a chat with them first before coming on here?

[Pally]

Whenever I have had a query re their meat or fish they have been very helpful and open and also willing to listen so having a chat with them as Smiffy suggests is worth it - they do listen, are open to suggestions and keen to meet customer needs. Maybe mention to them the comparison to Lidl ....?

[sparticus]

Can I just ask if those questioning Billings' stuff had a chat with them first before coming on here?

Can I just ask if those responding to my posts read them first before coming on here?

[robbieduncan]

They've always told me that the burgers would be frozen when I've bought them in the past. Normally when I'm buying 10+ at once