Debate

[Pally]

As a pretty new member of this site I confess to finding it increasingly irritating that potentially interesting debate either about Sydenham issues (eg new Aquatics shop thread) or wider issues (eg Oh dear or George Galloway thread) is hindered because of a rapid deterioration into completely unnecessary aggressive rudeness, sarcasm and derogatory comments. This seems to hinder the potential usefulness of this forum and I have already identified where individual members seem to understandably withdraw from debate rather than get caught up in the argument (which is not the same as debate!) I have withdrawn myself for this reason

A few individuals regularly try to defuse arguments and others clearly make use of useful threads (eg Kids).

But surely we can get this forum into an overall more positive debating and discussion forum that can also influence and inform on local issues, rather than all the less than constructive rudeness, sarcasm, negativity and accusation that takes place at the moment?

Admin. has a difficult job; can we make it easier?

[Eagle]

Well said. I concur 100%.

Have a good evening all.

[Tim Lund]

There are those who'll think this rich coming from me, but I'd also like to endorse Pally here.

I'd also suggest - Eagle - that when we can't understand why what we write produces such descents into abuse, for a while we just give things a break.

If then we feel we have to post, make it something different - even if we can't manage something completely different.

So here's something not completely different I have in mind to post about, but still thought provoking, I'd say



but today I have to do some paid for work, so more anon.

[Eagle]

Tim

I have been considering your suggestion. It is only two in particular who are abusive etc , we have to accept that they have not grown up.

Also so many subjects seem to be not de riggeur , one wonders what one can post about.


May take a break or even bow out alltogether.

Best wishes to everyone , even the offensive duo.

[hairybuddha]

Surely the point here is that different sections of the forum are for different kinds of topics and different kinds of debate? If someone is being rude and inflammatory in a section about an aquatics shop then that's crazy (and that's the kind of thing that admin should be stamping on).

But if we're debating the rights and wrongs of operation Yewtree or the good and bad of various religions or conflicts then passions are going to run high. And that's what the pub is for...

[admin]

Best wishes to everyone , even the offensive duo.

My complaints list is not restricted to two (joy if it only were true). I think you miss the point Eagle - it is to each and everyone of us to consider whether our posts are positive and how they read by others. It is hard to change others but easier to change oneself.

If that raises the level of debate - and the humour - then all people tend to adjust their style to match. Result!

The trick is that we don't want the forum to become too bland/anodyne. Controversial posts are meat and veg to forums. All I ask is people post sensitively on sensitive subjects and not to get into knee jerk reactions or let the persona of the poster obscure the content of the post. We don't do that sufficiently here which is why Israel/Gaza is off limits which is a shame.

I always take criticism of my posts seriously. Sadly they are sometimes bang on. The trick is to learn on and post better. No one here has nothing to learn in that department.

Look to thyselves.

Admin

[Pally]

Surely the point here is that different sections of the forum are for different kinds of topics and different kinds of debate? If someone is being rude and inflammatory in a section about an aquatics shop then that's crazy (and that's the kind of thing that admin should be stamping on).

But if we're debating the rights and wrongs of operation Yewtree or the good and bad of various religions or conflicts then passions are going to run high. And that's what the pub is for...

Passions can run high without being reduced to sarcasm and derogatory remarks. My original post was not intended to kill healthy debate, I think it is the negativity and descending into unpleasantness that is doing that.

Areas/Issues being banned from discussion appears to happen when debate becomes personal, rude, aggressive, unreasoned, unobjective to an extent that can cause offence, possibly even deliberately obtuse! I am not suggesting "fluffy, nicey, nicey" here, just reasonable reasoned, non personal open and well presented debate "

[hairybuddha]

Passions can run high without being reduced to sarcasm and derogatory remarks.

I think that would depend on who you are talking to and what you are responding to.

But I accept your broader point.

For the most part admin doesn't actually ban discussion of any or all topics. The case of Israel/Gaza is exceptional and (I think) a good judgement.

[Pally]

Passions can run high without being reduced to sarcasm and derogatory remarks.

I think that would depend on who you are talking to and what you are responding to.

But I accept your broader point.

For the most part admin doesn't actually ban discussion of any or all topics. .

Whoever you are talking to and whatever it is about, each of us can decide how we are going to post, the nature of our response etc.We as individuals choose to let others make us angry. Sorry if this sounds very pompous - not meant to be and I know its not easy!

it seems a pity that Admin. has to ban/ freeze any posts

[Nigel]

Pally
I agree - I will be the first to admit that my own views are offensive to many but I hope reasonably well expressed and not deliberately provocative of those of differing views .
I think it's very telling that your very sensible post quickly got cluttered with personalised criticisms - someone not being good enough at pasting links ( done of us are too good at it ....) , criticisms about sources ( again a personal preference , not mandatory ).

I think negative comments are entitled to be there but the rest f the forum should and usually do balance it eg someone thinks a new shop looks messy , others respond by disagreeing . A classic example was the tattoo shop - why shouldn't someone say they do not welcome it if that is there view - plenty of others took an opposing view .

The big problem I think is some of the downright rude responses to some posts - I believe they put the moderator in an invidious position in having to close debate about a subject when they should really be stopping someone posting - the digital naughty step as it were .

I agree that some if the behaviours has deterred new and existing members from expressing views and that has to be bad . Maybe we need a kind of code of conduct to remind us all to treat our fellow cove decently .
A very good evening
Nigel

[Pally]

Well said Nigel. I have noticed a number of your attempts to defuse arguments, sadly not always successful. Negative views/comments are absolutely part of debate as are differing views on many different things. As you say downright rudeness is just not necessary and, as I said previously, hinders good debate and discussion.

The tattoo shop ...well yes, one persons poison is another persons cup of tea or should I say one persons tattoo is another persons art form ...and we are all entitled to say what we think!

Digital naughty step and code of conduct sound promising!

...And finally, I still haven't worked out how to add links on this site ...any advice?

[Rachael]

Does anyone know what Tim's graphic is about? I can't work it out (must be having a dim day).

I don't mind hearty debate, I don't even mind bad-tempered debate. I find it very boring when a handful of posters I shall not name always respond to other particular posters (whom I will also not name) to pick fight with what has been said. A lot of that is just arguing for the sake of it.

[Pally]

No idea re Tim's graphic - I am awaiting enlightenment

Agree re the arguing for the sake of it ! A pity.

[Annie.]

Perhaps Tim's graphic is to do with population and what area holds the most people?

[Pally]

Good suggestion Annie. And so the mystery continues ...Tim?

[Annie.]

I have no idea of course, but I'm sure Tim will enlighten us when he has finished doing his "Paid work"

[Tim Lund]

I have no idea of course, but I'm sure Tim will enlighten us when he has finished doing his "Paid work"

I'm pleased to say my clients have found me a nice chunk of work, so I've been happily getting on with that, and not got round to developing the line of thought that graphic suggested to me. Or rather, several lines of thought. But to whet any appetites out there, it comes from a tweet I saw retweeted from a Dutch Town Planner, Jaap Modder, and was to suggest that you could think of the Netherlands in the same way as those big conurbations plotted to scale over it, so, in his words

Holland is not a dense country, but an empty city

I'm not convinced, but I do like comments such as this which aim to reframe how we think. As someone who's on committees of 'Friends of' groups for three of our local open spaces, I think often about the how cities need a pattern of developed land and open spaces, and I'm interested in what such patterns are most satisfying for us as human beings (and for the rest of the cargo on this Planet Earth).

I was recently in Copenhagen, and was fascinated by the way it, as a city, is outgrowing Denmark - so with the recently constructed Oresund Bridge, Malmo & Lund, in Sweden, are really now part of Greater Copenhagen.



In many ways it is like London, but Holland, without one such dominant city seems to be different.

I'm not saying one pattern is better than the other - just wanting to know more, and think more.

[hairybuddha]

...And finally, I still haven't worked out how to add links on this site ...any advice?

Copy and paste the link into the text of your comment > Highlight the link > Then click the URL button above the text box. Job done

[Pally]

[bag lady]

Thanks and welcome Pally

Your post is like a breath of fresh air , really its made me think.

I'm feeling pretty fed up of the disintegration of topics. I admit by not posting i'm allowing it to happen, not that i think anything i may say might have made such a big difference but i am a bit frustrated by any topic leading to the same old spats between the same people.

However after typing this and looking back (many edits later) maybe this is what a forum is about feeling like you know a forum person by their responses and even second guessing their responses is ... a kind of community thing,

The problem is when it gets a bit 'clicky' and other people feel uncomfortable to comment, or even worse its boring....

Dunno the answer but you've certainly made me think, it's a great forum but to keep it lively us lurkers should post a bit more so........