Night of Mediumship & Clairvoyance

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mosy
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Re: Night of Mediumship & Clairvoyance

Post by mosy »

hairybuddha wrote:The difference is moral. Clairvoyants are claiming to be able to contact the dead. [1] Any rational [2] person can see this is nonsense. They are offering comfort to grieving and vulnerable people [3] on a false premise in exchange for money.[4]

Being deceived about your dead relative is clearly worse than being deceived about why your thigh feels better.[5]
[My numbering]

1. And you can prove that they can't?
2. Rational, as in science we can prove today? A throw away line would be flat earth.
3. Yeah, they kinda do.
4. Possibly true. I'll go back to whether that leads to fleecing. Prima facie the entrance fee is not a lot.

5. Why? You regard both as deceit - isn't deceit an absolute? If you mean morally reprehensible then again, why, if I come home happier?
Robin Orton
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Re: Night of Mediumship & Clairvoyance

Post by Robin Orton »

hairybuddha wrote: Clairvoyants are claiming to be able to contact the dead. Any rational person can see this is nonsense.
Depends what you mean by a 'rational person.' I would claim to be such a person, in the sense of believing that rational processes can be helpful in establishing what is true and what isn't. But I wouldn't be so arrogant as to say that claiming to contact the dead is obviously 'nonsense.' (I believe that such a claim would be mistaken, i.e. wrong, but that's not the same thing.)
Annie.
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Re: Night of Mediumship & Clairvoyance

Post by Annie. »

A lot of people find comfort with this, why knock it? Each to their own.
SepticSkeptic
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Re: Night of Mediumship & Clairvoyance

Post by SepticSkeptic »

Because they are making it up.
Giving life changing guidance based upon lies and deception for money in a completely unregulated manner and zero professional standards.


What I find irritating is this use of the phrase "open-minded" by believers, whatever bollocks it is.
I will change my mind on anything and everything. Just show me the evidence.
Nothing in the world will change the believers mind. Whether it be the contradictory mechanisms of alternative therapy, bronze age religious mythology, or mediums...

Who is open minded?
Robin Orton
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Re: Night of Mediumship & Clairvoyance

Post by Robin Orton »

SepticSkeptic wrote: I will change my mind on anything and everything. Just show me the evidence.Nothing in the world will change the believers mind.
I suspect that believers may have a different view from you as to what constitutes 'evidence' (in the sense of a good reason for believing something to be true.)
14BradfordRoad
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Re: Night of Mediumship & Clairvoyance

Post by 14BradfordRoad »

SepticSkeptic wrote: What I find irritating is this use of the phrase "open-minded" by believers, whatever
bollocks it is.
I will change my mind on anything and everything. Just show me the evidence.
Nothing in the world will change the believers mind. Whether it be the contradictory mechanisms of alternative therapy, bronze age religious mythology, or mediums...

Who is open minded?
Not you after reading the above, you certainly live up to your name! :lol:
I'm suprised by how much a psychic event in the Golden Lion could irritate anyone so
much. I can only assume you won't be attending!

BTW: Meaning of "Open minded" is : http://www.thefreedictionary.com/open-minded
and not necessarily a 'believer'. Why not live and let live just a bit!
hairybuddha

Re: Night of Mediumship & Clairvoyance

Post by hairybuddha »

Robin Orton wrote:
hairybuddha wrote: Clairvoyants are claiming to be able to contact the dead. Any rational person can see this is nonsense.
Depends what you mean by a 'rational person.' I would claim to be such a person, in the sense of believing that rational processes can be helpful in establishing what is true and what isn't. But I wouldn't be so arrogant as to say that claiming to contact the dead is obviously 'nonsense.' (I believe that such a claim would be mistaken, i.e. wrong, but that's not the same thing.)
Semantics. You believe their claims to be false. So offering to contact the dead on behalf of a bereaved person is surely morally reprehensible.
hairybuddha

Re: Night of Mediumship & Clairvoyance

Post by hairybuddha »

mosy wrote:5. Why? You regard both as deceit - isn't deceit an absolute? If you mean morally reprehensible then again, why, if I come home happier?
Is deceit absolute? Of course not. Do you really believe that there is no moral difference between someone who does a bit of massage and someone who claims to be able to contact the dead on behalf of bereaved relatives?

It's quite simple really. People putting on these kind of shows should be required to add a disclaimer to any promotional material that points out that they do not have magical powers and the show is for entertainment only. That way no one is being deceived or taken advantage of. Surely that's win win? What is it about the business model of these people that resists such a step? Could it be that they rely on desperate and vulnerable people to make their money?
Robin Orton
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Re: Night of Mediumship & Clairvoyance

Post by Robin Orton »

hairybuddha wrote: Semantics. You believe their claims to be false. So offering to contact the dead on behalf of a bereaved person is surely morally reprehensible.
So presumably you would regard as (equally) morally reprehensible any claim, for example, that if you behave well in this life you'll go to heaven?

And, incidentally, what's wrong with semantics?
hairybuddha wrote:
It's quite simple really. People putting on these kind of shows should be required to add a disclaimer to any promotional material that points out that they do not have magical powers and the show is for entertainment only. That way no one is being deceived or taken advantage of. Surely that's win win?
I doubt whether the 'psychics' would see it as win-win. I expect they believe that what they are doing is not entertainment, but rather that it reflects a spiritual truth which they have access to but the rest of us don't. (I am sure they would not claim to have 'magical powers.')
Tim Lund
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Re: Night of Mediumship & Clairvoyance

Post by Tim Lund »

I feel a kindred spirit here with hairybuddha, being also sometimes incensed by cynical exploitations of other people's weaknesses. But I'm also reminded of my favourite limerick

There once was a lawyer named Rex
With minuscule organs of sex.
Arraigned for exposure,
He maintained with composure,
"De minimis non curat lex."
hairybuddha

Re: Night of Mediumship & Clairvoyance

Post by hairybuddha »

Robin Orton wrote:So presumably you would regard as (equally) morally reprehensible any claim, for example, that if you behave well in this life you'll go to heaven?
Yes. Possibly even worse given all that has happened in the name of religion.
Robin Orton wrote:And, incidentally, what's wrong with semantics?
Nothing. Although semantic arguments are generally weak arguments.
Robin Orton wrote:I doubt whether the 'psychics' would see it as win-win.
And why is that? Is it because they rely on the vulnerable for their livelihood?
mosy
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Re: Night of Mediumship & Clairvoyance

Post by mosy »

As it's fruitless to argue back and forth our thoughts and opinions, I've just done a little digging. It seems that Consumer Protection from unfair trading Regulations 2008 (known as CPRs) was brought in (following an EU directive). In force, I think since 2010. It seems that a recipient of any medium or other psychic reader's service can now claim (sue) for non-provision of service paid for, with the onus being on the medium or reader to prove no foul. This therefore applies if a charge is made for the service, be it a fee, donation, or gift.

If you read the undernoted first link, you'll see that mediums/readers are advised to say "for entertainment only" or "as scientific experiment" as such are exempt from the CPRs. There apparently is no legal requirement to state such. Perhaps self-evidently if it's a way of side-stepping the CPRs ;)

You'll appreciate that this is somewhat ironic in that a genuine medium wouldn't need to use those descriptions (and some mediums object to them in principle) so logically their use is most likely to benefit frauds who don't want to risk being sued and can easily cover themselves by their use, together with limiting statements and a disclaimer notice. See the second link re professional indemnity insurance advice to astrologers (towards the end) for suggested limitations to state about what can be expected/achieved from the service offered. I assume similar restricting caveats are suggested for mediums.

http://www.psychicchatter.com/psychics- ... ions-2008/
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/apai_1.html

The intention of the CPRs is clearly to try to protect consumers, which apparently it doesn't as the rules can be so easily side-stepped. So, I'm afraid it's still buyer beware, but at least one now has to be made aware of what one is paying for.

Where all of this falls down is perhaps that it isn't people who believe who are vulnerable but those who would like to. So, say I told you that my fee was £20 for 15 mins but I couldn't guarantee receiving any messages at all, would you still pay it? I know you wouldn't of course, but if I were to pay on that basis, that'd be my choice. You'd be entitled to think a fool and his money are soon parted (if that's what you think) and I'd be entitled to tell you it was none of your business. No offence intended of course.
SepticSkeptic
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Re: Night of Mediumship & Clairvoyance

Post by SepticSkeptic »

Good digging Mosy.
SepticSkeptic
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Re: Night of Mediumship & Clairvoyance

Post by SepticSkeptic »

HB the rational voice as always.
Robin Orton
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Re: Night of Mediumship & Clairvoyance

Post by Robin Orton »

SepticSkeptic wrote:HB the rational voice as always.
It depends what you mean by 'rational.' Plato, St Thomas Aquinas, Descartes and Richard Dawkins would all claim to be 'rational' thinkers, although in rather different senses. Which sense are you thinking of, SS? (OK, I can guess.)

And before I get accused of 'semantics', let me say that I have maintained before on this forum that rational (yes) argument is best conducted if it is established early on whether or not people are using key words in the same sense. Other posters (you know who you are) have indicated that they think this is pedantic and unnecessary: they seem to prefer a more impressionistic or 'broadbrush' approach.
Last edited by Robin Orton on 26 Jul 2014 11:05, edited 1 time in total.
Eagle
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Re: Night of Mediumship & Clairvoyance

Post by Eagle »

Some would say not much tolerance has been shown to those who believe in this sort of thing.

Would anyone get away with mocking religion in this way. Has religion any more proof??
mosy
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Re: Night of Mediumship & Clairvoyance

Post by mosy »

Eagle, I know you meant well, but I doubt believers would appreciate and doff their caps with gracious humility that they were being granted largesse "tolerance". Perhaps Robin Orton has a point about words although in fairness I'm struggling to find a more appropriate one.

Your second point is similar to the question mediums and the spiritual church ask - i.e. Why should they have to call themselves entertainers when priests/vicars don't? (They are theoretically caught in the net also because they ask for donations.)

@ SepticSkeptic. It's a subject I've been interested in for many years so no hardship to spend time reading up. The interpretation of the Trading Standards Office sums it up really, that since a medium can't prove they can see/hear/communicate with spirits all they can do is show that they're not taking money by false pretences. Incidentally CPRs 2008 covers many consumer scams (like false "sales reductions", 0890 "prize draws" and suchlike), another sore point for those who believe themselves genuine mediums who feel they've been caught up in it unfairly.
SepticSkeptic
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Re: Night of Mediumship & Clairvoyance

Post by SepticSkeptic »

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wor ... re-claims/


I think the Nigerian government need to be a little more open minded.
Robin Orton
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Re: Night of Mediumship & Clairvoyance

Post by Robin Orton »

It may well be sensible in west Africa, in the middle of a frightening epidemic, for the government to discourage claims to be able to cure a deadly virus by faith-healing alone. Whether it follows that it would be justifiable in this country to ban claims to be able to contact the dead, I am not sure.
Tim Lund
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Re: Night of Mediumship & Clairvoyance

Post by Tim Lund »

Robin Orton wrote:It may well be sensible in west Africa, in the middle of a frightening epidemic, for the government to discourage claims to be able to cure a deadly virus by faith-healing alone. Whether it follows that it would be justifiable in this country to ban claims to be able to contact the dead, I am not sure.
Nice slide there from 'discourage' to 'ban'. I'd have thought governments - and citizens - had a duty to discourage at all times claims to be able to cure a deadly virus by faith-healing alone, and other less less consequential claims. Banning is another matter, which may in extremis be a justifiable course of action for governments.

Finding effective, general ways to discourage fellow citizens' non-evidence based claims would seem the more pressing civic duty.
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