A SYMBOL FOR SYDENHAM

by **Peak Hillbilly** » 11 Jun 2008 21:58

Do you mean the famed 'beast of Sydenham?'

by **Juwlz** » 11 Jun 2008 23:15

Lee

I sent you a message but there seems to be a problem with them going thru, so apologies if you don't have it yet.

Juwlz

by **leenewham** » 11 Jun 2008 23:40

No problem, I replied to both.

by **lambchops** » 12 Jun 2008 00:16

Peak Hillbilly wrote:Do you mean the famed 'beast of Sydenham?'

i am real!

ask all the laydeez.

by **Rebelmc** » 12 Jun 2008 02:23

Sorry, but it may appear that I'm going off on one again!

In my original posting, I made a reference to acknowledging that a green dragon might be the earliest symbol for Sydenham, but that was before I read the first page properly; now I have read the first page, I see that the reference to The Green Dragon pub/spa house dates to 1770, 30 years after the establishment of The Greyhound, so I feel inclined to retract my earlier comment and reaffirm my vote for a greyhound being a natural for a symbol for Sydenham.

In additional mitigation, I would say that I've been interested in the history of the area in general for the last 35 years (although I'm by no means an expert) and, if I had never looked at this thread, I would never have known about the green dragon.

As some of you may know, I'm involved in the Sydenham Community Radio project and, by coincidence, one of the topics on our current agenda is a logo that might represent the radio station and the area, with a view to coming up with a brand for our website (for starters).

My views on logos are these; firstly, they need to stand out and, secondly they can take a bit of explanation, but, like jokes, not too much.

If somebody asked me why the greyhound was chosen as the symbol of Sydenham (whether the building was there or not) I could say "because there was a pub called 'The Greyhound' at the top of Sydenham High Street for nearly 300 years", and that would satisfy most people who asked the question; if I was asked why a green dragon was chosen, I would have to go into Sydenham's history as a spa, explain where Wells Park Road is in relation to what most people think is Sydenham, explain that there hasn't been a spa there for a couple of hundred years or more, and then explain why a nondescript road that links Upper Sydenham (an area that hasn't really existed for quite a long time) to almost the gateway to Forest Hill ("turn left at the bottom, right at the roundabout and you hit Forest hill in about a quarter of a mile") should be the focus for Sydenham's symbol, etc., etc......................

I'm not saying any sort of greyhound, styalised or otherwise, is the ultimate answer, but I really don't see a green dragon meaning anything to anybody, not even the casual (but keen) cognoscenti.

by **ALIB** » 12 Jun 2008 08:41

Reblemc has swayed me in my opinion also. I think a green dragon would be nice and manly, but the Greyhound has more sydenham-assciated history behind it. The green dragon is somewhat obscure.
A couple of years ago, i would have associated a greyhound symbol with Catford, but their loss is our gain.

A greyhound symbol would probably be more fitting, but i wouldn't want a design that is too effeminate (sp?). Greyhounds always seem to me to be streaky cowardly dogs, who only chase fluffy toys.

Alib

by **paget76** » 12 Jun 2008 09:14

Upper Sydenham (an area that hasn't really existed for quite a long time)

Really? I could have sworn I lived there for 7 years!

by **castiron73** » 12 Jun 2008 09:41

I think this forum sums up very nicely why most towns are going to shit. Those people who want to make a positive difference tend to listen to others and find there are so many counter-arguments you end up back where you started.

In the meantime those who don't care about anything but profit are busy getting on with ruining the look of shops and houses and destroying local architecture and heritage

I'm not blaming anyone, that's just how democracy works

I say let's appoint our own ultra-local mayor and then live in a benign dictatorship while they sort it out. Or better still, anyone who wants to be mayor just seize power. You could do quite a lot of good while the real council forms committees, analyses budgets and conducts polls to see if they can stop you

by **Steve Grindlay** » 12 Jun 2008 09:49

Rebelmc wrote:... I made a reference to acknowledging that a green dragon might be the earliest symbol for Sydenham, but that was before I read the first page properly; now I have read the first page, I see that the reference to The Green Dragon pub/spa house dates to 1770, 30 years after the establishment of The Greyhound...

Not quite right...

Lewisham Parish Register is the earliest surviving document so far found that refers to the Greyhound by name. On 27 Dec 1729 it records the burial of "Joseph Hide, vintner, from the Greyhound".

Although the quote near the beginning of this thread gives 1770 for the Green Dragon, later in the article the dragon says it "was not the first dragon which had adorned the post". In a list of West Kent Alehouse Keepers there is mention mention of a Green Dragon that was possibly located in Sydenham, as early as 1700.

Nothing will convince me that a greyhound should be the symbol for Sydenham. It is just one of a number of 18th century pub signs that have survived in the area. The building's still there and, I firmly believe, will be refurbished and have its own new pub sign.

A Green Dragon, on the other hand, would make much more sense. The significance of the original sign was that, raised high and painted bright green, it was the first thing that most visitors to Sydenham saw as they came over Sydenham Hill from London. It is mentioned in four or five early books about the area (the Greyhound is not). The development of the wells was the first event of any significance in the 1000 year history of Sydenham. It made us, for a brief period, a tourist attraction with visitors ranging from John Evelyn and Daniel Defoe to George III.

What is wrong with having a slightly cryptic symbol? It might make people curious to find out more.

by **ALIB** » 12 Jun 2008 09:59

Errr, Can I change my mind again? Steve now has me convinced about the Green Dragon being the Sydenham symbol.

Should we run a poll this? or is Lee monitoring the feedback?

Alib

by **Gaz** » 12 Jun 2008 10:41

Steve Grindlay wrote:Nothing will convince me that a greyhound should be the symbol for Sydenham. It is just one of a number of 18th century pub signs that have survived in the area. The building's still there and, I firmly believe, will be refurbished and have its own new pub sign.

A Green Dragon, on the other hand, would make much more sense. The significance of the original sign was that, raised high and painted bright green, it was the first thing that most visitors to Sydenham saw as they came over Sydenham Hill from London. It is mentioned in four or five early books about the area (the Greyhound is not). The development of the wells was the first event of any significance in the 1000 year history of Sydenham. It made us, for a brief period, a tourist attraction with visitors ranging from John Evelyn and Daniel Defoe to George III.

What is wrong with having a slightly cryptic symbol? It might make people curious to find out more.

I also prefer the connotations associated with a Green Dragon: it being a symbol of health (looking over and marking the orginal Wells), of guardianship and of the natural environment (the Green representing the parks/trees and green credentials of the area).

The Greyhound, to me, is frankly just a pub and an iconic greyhound just doesn't inspire me!

by **castiron73** » 12 Jun 2008 10:45

Hey, we've all forgotten that Castlemore are building us a green dragon down at Bell Green as part of phase three - you can see the tail of it in the drawings below but sadly the head is just out of view

by **admin** » 12 Jun 2008 10:56

Errrr ... you know I'm supposed to be neutral in all this ... BUT ... if we chose the dragon then logically we could then adopt "Light my fire" as the Sydenham National Anthem. Or do I hear cries of "Fire" from James Brown groupies?

Or should I just stick up a picture of last Sunday and have done with it?

Edit - Anyone who mentions "Puff the Magic Dragon" will be instantly banned. Whoops :oops:

Admin

by **simon** » 12 Jun 2008 11:26

ALIB wrote: Greyhounds always seem to me to be streaky cowardly dogs, who only chase fluffy toys.

Alib

Sorry not having that slur on on the noble breed!
The only breed of dog mentioned in the Bible, featured in ancient Egyptian tomb painitngs and in ancient greek legends; Odysseus kept greyhounds!
Greyhound racing (couring) was introduced to this country by the Romans and was popular with the aristocracy. The breed is mentioned in the works of Chaucer and Shakespear and has long associations with royalty, the present Queen owned racing greyhounds up until the 1970s.

That said, the Staff would probably be a more fitting symbol for Sydenham giventheir local ubiquity!

Greyhound over a green dragon anyday. At least they exist and are not a mythical creation!

by **Gaz** » 12 Jun 2008 12:46

simon wrote:Greyhound over a green dragon anyday. At least they exist and are not a mythical creation!

Erm, point of order Simon; to the peoples of the mid-19th century and earlier, Dragons did exist! :shock:

The sculptures, built by famous palaeontologist Waterhouse Hawkins and supervised by Owen himself, captured the imaginations of the Victorian public. This was the stuff of legend. Now even the greatest geologists and scientists of the day had to admit what the fairy tales had said all along: monsters and dragons were real.

http://wunderkammer.com.au/pala.htm

When people found fossils they interpreted these as being the remains of dragons and giant serpents. It wasn't until 1842 that they became known as dinosaurs. Interestingly, the first artistic impressions of these dinosaurs (the Iguanodon) were made by Benjamin Hawkin for the Great Exhibition and these sculptures have resided in Sydenham since 1852. Some more info and piccies can be found here:

http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/features/dinosaurs/index.html
http://www.cabinetmagazine.org/issues/2 ... serlin.php

So, the Green Dragon is also appropriate as it can also represent an artistic portrayal of the (artistic) dinosaurs in CPP!

(I suppose that an anatomically-incorrect Iguanodon icon, based on Hawkin's works, should also be considered as a symbol for Sydenham. Personally, however, I feel that adopting a dinosaur as an icon emotes backward thinking.)

by **lambchops** » 12 Jun 2008 14:37

i reckon a dragon does more poo than a fox, anyday.

by **admin** » 12 Jun 2008 14:48

Poll added for the two choices most mentioned here. Vote early, vote ...

Admin

by **lambchops** » 12 Jun 2008 15:15

there's no dragon poo option.

by **ALIB** » 12 Jun 2008 15:51

admin wrote:Errrr ... you know I'm supposed to be neutral in all this ... BUT ... if we chose the dragon then logically we could then adopt "Light my fire" as the Sydenham National Anthem. Or do I hear cries of "Fire" from James Brown groupies?

Or should I just stick up a picture of last Sunday and have done with it?

Edit - Anyone who mentions "Puff the Magic Dragon" will be instantly banned. Whoops

Admin

Homophobe

Alib

by **lambchops** » 12 Jun 2008 16:10

if we were to have a dragon, it could be made out of copper so it oxidises into a nice verdigris.

A SYMBOL FOR SYDENHAM

My favoured Sydenham Symbol:

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