Parish Boundaries: do you know where you live?

[Falkor]

I've been carrying out more perplexing research into boundaries. It seems silly to decide which town or place one lives in based on the postcode system, plus it's flawed anyhow. SE23 vs. SE26 may seem like a rational division, but if I told you I lived in BR5, you wouldn't know whether I'm in Petts Wood, St Paul's Cray, St Mary Cray or Orpington!

It seems the more reliable (and historical) way of ascertaining one's area is through Parish boundaries vs. those of Borough Wards (to be researched another time). Below I present the current boundaries of Sydenham and Forest Hill based on the Parish system:
View Parish map...

The parishes represents the area you live in, folks; study them carefully! Yes, London Road and Forest Hill station IS IN SYDENHAM! You better belive it, folks; I don't want any arguements about it. WE OWN FOREST HILL! So much for all the patriotism coming from the SE23 crew during Steve Grindlay's walkabout "I am strictly a Forest Hill citizen; I never go to Sydenham". Several people I spoke to that day shared the same stubborn mindset.

Anyway, it seems a lot has changed since the parish of Lewisham, St Mary the Virgin, was created in ancient times. I was a bit shocked to discover the shape of the above boundaries. I expected Sydenham Avenue to be in Beckenham. I expected Sydenham Rise to be in Dulwich based on the old boundary between Surrey and Kent (read more about it in the Town History forum). Several parishes have merged together, including Christ Church, St Paul and St George, causing Forest Hill to grow in the Catford direction. Was the hamlet of Honor Oak Park given a church (St Augustine) before having to give it back again to Forest Hill? Let's take a look, from the beginning, at the events that divided the mother Parish of Lewisham into it's associated daughter parishes, and how they've changed shape over the years:

Unfortunately I have no records describing what happened after 1910 or where the dividing lines were chosen at each stage of Parish formation/alteration. The research continues...

After taking into account 21st century changes, do you believe the boundaries should end up forming the same shapes seen in the above Parish map, or could there be inaccuracies in the current boundaries presented?

[stuart]

Terrific work Falkor. Especially the land grab for what was formerly Forest Hill.

The smart folks of the Sydenham Society already have the Horniman Museum photo on their brochure cover. I thought they were pushing our boundaries a bit - but not now.

What's next? Are we going to demand our councillors get Lewisham's signs changed to "Welcome to Sydenham" on London Road? Or are we going to have to resort to the guerilla tactics of Lancastrians who go out at night to remove/replace signage that seeks to change the borders of their county from those convenient for a transient local authority?

Or should we rage a virtual war as the Forest Hill Liberation Front on SE23.COM? The opportunities would appear unlimited and wonderfully irritating to those lost souls!

Stuart

[Thomas]

Falkor - thanks for this - do you (or does anyone else) know about that part of Sydenham SE26, closest to Dulwich, and is part of the London Borough of Southwark, rather than of Lewisham - was it included in the parish boundaries of St Barts or was it included in the boundaries of St Stephens South Dulwich?

[Steve Grindlay]

That's really useful information, Falkor. Are you able to give the sources?

[Falkor]

Thanks Stuart! I think Sydenham deserves a special town sign somewhere... Funnily enough, I asked somebody today how they knew when they were safely inside Biggin Hill, and they told me "when I see the sign". But I pointed out that the sign is only in 2 places, and suggested finding out the boundaries of the local church parish, which must be Anglican (Church of England) of course. I really don't see any other way of doing it... Borough Wards look even more unreliable than Postcodes.

Thomas, take a look at this map excerpt and compare it with the Parish map above:

The boundary between the London boroughs of Lewisham and Southwark is shown clearly in gray. The postcode boundary between SE26 and SE21 is in red. Looking at this, we can deduce that part of SE26 is in the London Borough of Southwark, as already pointed out by Thomas. According to my sources, this part of SE26 falls entirely and almost perfectly inside the neighbouring Dulwich Parishes--St Stephen (south) and St Clement with St Peter (north) alongside the western edge of Sydenham Hill--except the part on the road map highlighted in red, which is in the Sydenham Parish of St Philip the Apostle.

Steve, my sources are:
http://www.acny.org.uk/
http://www.nwkfhs.org.uk/parindex.htm

[Falkor]

Comparing the current southern boundary of St Barts on the above Parish map with the historical southern boundary of ancient Lewisham (seen on Ordnance Survey maps) one could be forgiven for thinking that the current presented boundaries are wrong. Whereas All Saints and St Michaels & All Angels presumably looks fairly accurate based on what we know, with the boundary line regaining it's upper horizontal alignment above Beckenham, before heading north up the railway line. St. Barts is not in harmony with the rest of the parishes. Again, I asked the question: With all the parish changes that have taken place over the years how do the churches and the people know the boundaries of their parish? How were the various artists able to draw those parish maps of Sydenham and Forest Hill in combined accordance with each other? Well, it turns out that the Diocese of Rochester (and presumably the Diocese of Southwark, which Lewisham comes under) produce a booklet every so often called the Deanery. Presented below is the fairly recent 1998 edition for Beckenham:

















You can check the name of a road and know which parish it falls under; sometimes the odd numbers of a road will belong to one parish--the even number another--if the road is at a boundary. Based on this official Church Of England book, let's put the Parish map to the test...

Outside All Saints

Venner Road
Expected: Southern end in Beckenham Parish
Result: Correct

Byne Road
Expected: Southern end in Beckenham Parish
Result: Correct

Wiverton Road
Expected: Southern end in Beckenham Parish
Result: Correct

Woodbastwick Road
Expected: Entirely in Beckenham Parish
Result: Unlisted

Kent House Road
Expected: Southern end in Beckenham Parish
Result: Correct

Inside St Barts

Crystal Palace Park Road
Expected: Almost entirely outside of Beckenham Parish.
Result: Correct

Charleville Circus
Expected: Should not be listed under Beckenham Parish (now entirely in Sydenham)
Result: Correct

Sydenham Avenue
Expected: Should not be listed under Beckenham Parish (now entirely in Sydenham)
Result: Correct

Lawrie Park Crescent
Expected: Should not be listed under Beckenham Parish (now entirely in Sydenham)
Result: Correct

Border Road
Expected: Should not be listed under Beckenham Parish (now entirely in Sydenham)
Result: Correct

Lawrie Park Road
Expected: Should not be listed under Beckenham Parish (now entirely in Sydenham)
Result: Correct

Judging from the results of the test the Parish Map appears to be very accurate indeed! Lawrie Park Crescent is no longer part of Beckenham; Sydenham Avenue really is now part of Sydenham, folks! The fact that Woodbastwick Road is not listed could be down to a simple mistake of inadvertence; I doubt it will be found listed under any other parish.

I would have sworn on my life that St Barts was inaccurate and that anyone whom currently resides in Sydenham Avenue could not be classed as a Sydenhamhite, but a foreigner! Boy would I have been wrong--DEAD WRONG! You guys probably don't think this is important, but to me it's life or death. So much for the London Road posse...

To summarise, it appears all the records we need to complete this research into the history of parish/town boundaries has nothing to do with the council, but the Diocese office.

[Falkor]

I would like to provide corrections for 2 points:
*The Parish of Sydenham, Holy Trinity was first created in 1866--NOT 1855.
*The Diocesan Offices only have Parish boundary records going back to the war.

When I first asked the question "How can I trace Town boundaries" I thought I was asking one of the most fundamental children's questions relating to local history/family history. Little did I realise what a struggle it would be to find the answers. I've had to research Ecclesiastical history in great detail and educate myself on all the various terminology.

Despite what people at Lewisham Local Studies Centre and even the Diocesan Offices told me, records relating to parish boundaries are NOT to be found in ANY public studies centre/archive! In fact, there is only one place in the whole of England where these records can be found, and I'm reluctant to reveal it, since I had to intrude on people's own private office space.

Boundary changes do not just occur with parish creation/abolition, but are sometimes requested for other reasons, like when a new estate is built near a dividing line. Below I present a revised list of events that have affected the boundaries inside Lewisham:

Note: some details are missing regarding parish involvment outside of Lewisham, and no doubt there are mistakes; corrections welcome.

Unfortunately, I cannot publish any maps on the Internet due to copyright, but if anyone is interested in this kind of thing then you are welcome to PM me. The Order-in-Council, which contains a description of the boundary changes, can be found in the London Gazette (searchable online); I don't have them all at the time of writing as the website is currently down, but they should all be there. Anyway, that pretty much concludes my research into this subject. I leave you with the Order-in-Council of the first ever event that took place inside Lewisham...