VENNER ROAD/HIGH STREET

[Eagle]

Simon
Be careful what you wish for. I regret a bench will probably be used by the infamous all day drinkers/

[JulietP]

I saw someone driving over this today - surely it's not allowed!?

[leenewham]

The two posts look like they are for street signs although on all the designs they are positioned where the trees should be.

I'm a little puzzled about provision for the trees. In general, councils don't like trees, they require maintenance and therefore cost.

Trees they look great, especially with lights in at Christmas (or little while ones all year around). So hopefully this will happen and no doubt will or our local cllrs will be fighting tooth and nail to make sure that they do happen.

Here are the proposals:
http://www.sydenham.org.uk/Sydenham_consult_leaflet.pdf

Here are the final designs:
http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/inmyarea/reg ... treet.aspx

The types of trees and setting don't appear to be specified, which is a little odd, normally this is very clear, at least in the schemes we are involved with working alongside architects in other parts of London. Things like street furniture don't appear to have been finalised either, I can't find any reference to them for exact types. Again councils don't like 'bespoke', it's more expensive to replace once broken. There are many catalogues benches are purchased from, we have been trying to select some appropriate ones as part of a branding excercise in other parts of London alongside architects. They are roughly around £1600 each I understand per bench.

Looking at the drawings of the trees proposed outside of the nabourhood Centre, they are set in a flexible resin based tree pit, provision of which seems to be missing from the Venner Road pocket square. This is what I'm talking about:

http://www.esi.info/detail.cfm/Henry-Wi ... 89_LL143AX

http://www.esi.info/detail.cfm/Ronacret ... 91_CM195TD

Updates on the work can be found here:
http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/inmyarea/reg ... eport.aspx

If you have any queries about the project then contact Jim Stacy at JB Riney:
jim.stacy@jbriney.co.uk

Hopefully they will reply to my email about the queries on this forum.

By the way, www.esi.info is a brilliant source for all things in construction, from high streets to parks, to homes etc.

[Nigel]

Lee
Extremely helpful. I wrote to Mr Stacy yesterday regarding trees , benches and bollards and will post any news as I am sure you will.
I am hoping for a resounding " whitebeams!" response but if trees ( of any kind , I am accommodating in the matters) are not in the plan then I really think all of us need to be demanding "if not , why not". These are such golden opportunities to introduce living trees into our environment that we should all make ourselves a nuisance until we get them.
The views on maintainence are so overstated and any additional work is outweighed by the benefits many times over.
Sincerely hoping we hear good news soon
Good afternoon
Nigel

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[Maria]

... and mine - as so do I.

[Nigel]

By way of an update, I heard from the very agreeable Mr Stacy of Riney and co.
Regarding the Venner Road square Riney are intending to plant two trees. The original plan was to plant four but owing to the various underground services this is now reduced to two. As yet species unspecified . He also confirmed that there would be seating in said square and he felt that this (and the trees) would put paid to people driving over , and I understand , parking on, this new paving.
On a wider note , a further three trees planned for the Queensthorpe pocket park, three or four for the area outside of the post office - in all , I understand 21 new trees on their way which I I received as heartening and reviving news.

A note of caution , not I stress, against Mr Stacy who appears to be an upright and pleasant sort of chap, but against the kind of mission creep that lead to us forgoing the trees promised by SG Smith after de-forresting the end of Mayow Road, and the same kind of unpleasantness and chicanery no doubt intended by Purelake unless we put or collective feet down again.

So with that note of caution , positive news.
A very good afternoon
Nigel

[Eagle]

Good News about the trees Nigel.
Hope you will not come to regret wanting a seat.

[gerispringer]

Good news re trees. Lets hope someone is nominated to care for them. I am unconvinced of need for benches - I would rather see cafe tables and chairs over which someone has control.
BTW what are the two unsightly metal poles currently impaled in the Venner road site?

[Tim Lund]

Good news re trees. Lets hope someone is nominated to care for them. I am unconvinced of need for benches - I would rather see cafe tables and chairs over which someone has control.

Absolutely - this is the point I was trying to make to Nigel, that having someone who will take responsibility for the space comes before the specifics of what goes there.

I'd just like there to be someone who'll look after whatever does go there. Is that too simple a request?

Where we should start is with a credible café operator - George at Kenté? - who'll say "if there were tables here, and here, this sort of tree there, and bollards over there, and I was asked to pay no more than £x per annum for the right to sell coffee for so many years, etc. there, then you have a deal".

Of course it's possible that we'll get someone to use the space, arranged however local pressure, backing up the original plans turns out, and I very much hope we will. But if there is no such credible café operator, then we should be focusing on something low maintenance.

[JulietP]

Good news about the trees.

[Nigel]

Tim
I do not recall you "trying " to make a point to me.
My recollection is that you made an over-complicated assertion with which I did not agree.
That said, I think it would be really good if Kente put out tables for the consumption of coffee and pastries.
I think your point about responsibility for the square is a also a tad over-thought - unless it were mandated to Kente in some way LB Lewisham would still have maintain it . The idea of "low maintenance " is also puzzling - the paving pretty much takes care of itself and the type of small trees likely to be planted will need minor 3 yearly reduction and a spot of watering in the first year.
I don't fundamentally disagree but your tendency to put things into a kind of erstwhile 5 year plan sometimes seems to make things even less possible .
Great news about the trees , mixed reception for the bollards and divided opinion about the seating but a good day for simple souls like me.
Good evening
Nigel

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[Tim Lund]

Tim
My recollection is that you made an over-complicated assertion with which I did not agree.

Not sure what assertion that was. I'll admit that the idea of wholesale commercial property reform might have sounded complicated, but was in response to your comment

I am sure there will be some very convoluted and "excusathon" comments made by more the academic contributors to this forum ( I am no doubt missing something up population density ,fried chicken economics and the yurt crisis in Mongolia)

which I realise was meant with a smile, so I responded in similar vein with that link, and a wink

The solution for High Streets like Sydenham

When you write that my "tendency to put things into a kind of erstwhile 5 year plan sometimes seems to make things even less possible" you are right in the sense that I'm pointing up some of the difficulties - why things are "less possible" that we would like. It could be said in simpler language, such as:

Be careful what you wish for. I regret a bench will probably be used by the infamous all day drinkers/

which I think is a very valid point, and which you half deal with when you write "I think it would be really good if Kente put out tables for the consumption of coffee and pastries". Only half, because whoever might sell coffee and pastries there would also want to put out chairs for its customers, rather than rely on how clean LB Lewisham kept any permanent benches.

However, I want to progress things beyond Eagle's entirely valid point, to think about how such a space should be managed. At which point I'm baffled by your reference to a "5 year plan", something I associate with Soviet economics. In case anyone else had missed it, what I'm hoping for is a properly regulated bit of market economics, with a small scale entrepreneur such as George making a living from running what

Kente , by far the best Coffee Shop in Sydenham.

Then

I think your point about responsibility for the square is a also a tad over-thought - unless it were mandated to Kente in some way LB Lewisham would still have maintain it .

I think it's more like being realistic. LB Lewisham would always have some level of responsibility, but in any contract allowing the use by one party of space owned by another there will be an allocation of responsibilities. Generally the way these things work best is where there are more or less standard terms and conditions, in which details can be varied, such as rental payments, length of tenure, etc. That's why I was interested to know how street trading is licensed in other parts of LB Lewisham - it should provide a workable model, if there is one.

The idea of "low maintenance " is also puzzling - the paving pretty much takes care of itself and the type of small trees likely to be planted will need minor 3 yearly reduction and a spot of watering in the first year.

From the way you put it, you agree about the need for low maintenance, so I'm puzzled you're puzzled. But whoever ends up taking responsibility for this space should also not be be puzzled, so their views matter. Potential sellers of coffee and pastries may take the Eagle view, and not feel confident of their ability to keep the space looking good, and free of anti-social behaviour. I think they could be persuaded, but this will take more than attractive pictures of whitebeams



They will want reassurance on tedious questions such as how much work is involved in clearing away the leaf fall between times when LB Lewisham sweep the streets, how to co-ordinate with this service, whether in winter stray plastic bags will get blown up into the branches and stay there looking untidy if they don't have some long arm pruner to get rid of them. Details, details, but at least it's not the high-flown theorising you object to

a good day for simple souls like me.

From having known you many years, I know yours is not such a simple soul.

Remember, in this as in all things, keep things as simple as possible, but no simpler.

[gerispringer]

Trees were planted by LB Lewisham in a street inhabited by a friend of mine which all died as they were not watered during a crucial time of their development and it was a dry time of year. The dead trees are still there. Perhaps we could have some assurance that if the trees die they will be replaced.

[Eagle]

Why should we sit back and expect LBC to do everything. This costs money which some of us pay in taxes and council tax.

If you live near a tree in very dry times take out a watering can. It is not rocket science.

[gerispringer]

I agree in principle, but people would be reluctant to walk down the high street with a watering can to water the trees. I am sure residents of a road would water "their" trees if they were politely asked to do so. People are hesitant about unilaterally taking ownership of what is a public asset if they are unsure whether anyone else is doing it. The council should make it clear at the outset that they will plant the trees but that noone would water them (if that is what will happen) - then its up to the residents whether or not they wish to care for them. In a high street I think there should be someone nominated to initially care for newly planted trees. How come other areas manage to have hanging baskets etc.?

[Tim Lund]

Hanging baskets are relatively high maintenance, and LB Lewisham is not keen on them, but private businesses will sometimes make the effort - e.g. The Pavilion, where today I photographed someone watering one.

It's easier to maintain planters, and if they are substantial enough, they don't get nicked. This is what the 'Kirkdale Village' traders have done, with money from the Forest Hill Assembly. I also photographed these today:



In this case, the planters have been installed at the initiative of the traders, and they look fine (IMHO).

OTOH, there was no consultation for planters installed by SG Smith, and they are full of weeds - so illustrating the point that if you want the street to look good, start with the traders.


There's also still the unloved planting area by the toilets on Station Approach, which is about to go.


I also took some more photos of attractive planing, outside The Golden Lion and Trat Raff.





I discovered also that the bamboos outside the Kirkdale Bookshop


are maintained by them - they work too, and I assume they keep them as a sort of visually attractive screen for the pavement display of Sydenham DIY.

Here are some photos from earlier in the year

A brief gardening interlude, showing the difference between planting where no local trader - or anyone else, it seems - has a sense of ownership (I've now removed the sow thistle ...)


and three where local traders do have some sense of ownership

[leenewham]

Good point Tim. Getting businesses to have pride in a bit of greenery to make their businesses more attractive is a good one. Better to have planting in a well kept planter where people can see it rather than oddly stuck 30 feet in the air totally obscured behind a sign.

I hate hanging baskets from lamposts, it's just an odd concept. Mind you, I hate hanging baskets anyway, it's something my gran would do to go with the coloured strips of plastic hanging from the back door and the carpet on the toilet seat.

We need more pride in our high street and more traders involved in it's development.

[Tim Lund]

Thanks Lee.

And here's a stray plastic bag, which I honestly didn't put up there for the photo

[AdamN]

Walking past Venner Rd this morning I noticed it now has temporary bollards blocking access to the paved area form both sides. So hopefully they will be making that permanent shortly.

[Chris Best]

AdamN the plans are in the pop up shop at 24a Sydenham Road - we will have trees in this new square and electric points for use by street traders. Part of the design is to remove barriers so all the railings in the high street will be removed - there will be no bollards but open spaces with trees wherever possible.

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